#901 Victoria Dougherty: Creating a Story, Character Development, and the Limits of Art

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Uh LOOK, I, I was, I was going to ask you because uh I think that in one of our conversations, we talked a little bit about this. But uh I was uh I was curious, I got curious the other day, um when you're, when you're in the process in the initial steps of creating a story, uh o of course, I don't want you to just leave on the table all your cards, all of the things that you use as a, as a writer. I'm an open book but I'll talk about anything. But uh uh uh how do you go about it exactly. I mean, because of course, I imagine that different writers, different artists have different methods, different processes. They go through different creative ways of uh building up their stories. But uh how do you do it exactly? I mean, uh perhaps not so much how you do it but uh how much of it do you plan ahead? So you, uh for example, you have an idea for a story before you start writing. Do you already have a detailed plan about uh the characters that you will have their, their personalities, their names the places where the story will take place, the ending or how do you go about

01:28 Victoria Dougherty: it? I used to not, first of all, what you're talking about is there are two kinds of writers, they say plotters and panthers, plotters plot, right? And panthers fly by the seat of their pants. I used to be a panther and because I, I felt like, I don't know, II, I like that feeling of kind of winging it and seeing where the story took me. And then I, um I wrote an outline for one of my novels and by outline, I didn't kind of, I didn't really write a classical outline. In fact, I didn't even start out trying to write an outline. I was just trying to think through, I knew I wanted to tell a certain story and I was trying to think through how I would get from one part of the story to the next. And so what I began doing was um writing a chapter, giving the chapter a name. I didn't always give the chapter a name first. Sometimes I, I wrote a short summary of it first. I would just write a short summary, basically what I wanted to happen in that chapter. And so that's how I've settled on writing an outline that to, to put it more into a narrative, you know, to put my outline into a, into prose, you know, into a, into an actual functioning narrative works better for me than writing the, the sort of classical outline of, you know, the chapter one a is going to happen, the protagonist meets the heroine, they go on a motorcycle ride, you know, that, that doesn't work for me. It doesn't, it doesn't inspire me sufficiently to wanna write to that direct, you know, to that chapter. So, you know, sometimes if I write a relatively short summary, that's maybe just a paragraph. Other times, I even, you know, if I feel moved, I'll write an entire scene from that, you know, as it kind of comes to me, not perfect obviously, but just maybe a few lines of dialogue, whatever it is. And that has been really helpful to me. So now I think I'm an official plotter because I, um not only does that expedite the process tremendously, it, it just makes it so much easier to write. It also keeps somebody like me who is prone to creative tangents. It keeps me on the straight and narrow and not, you know, taking the reader to a place they don't need to go and they don't even really want to go, which is, you know, kind of important. You, you have to keep your readers uh needs in mind. You know, I think as a writer, I think that's important, not just your own needs. It's, it's, it's a conversation you're having in a sense with someone who is picking up your work and, and, and and you have to remember that it's not one sided.

04:30 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. You know, I, I was curious about asking you about that. O of course, again, you're just one single creator. There are many different ways of doing the same thing. I bet. So, but I, I was just thinking so for example, we've already talked here on the show about, for example, uh a game of Thrones, I mentioned a few times one piece and I mean, I was just uh and the Lord of the Rings also, for example, uh I was just thinking about uh when writers try to go about creating those massive stories that go for more than 1000 chapters in manga or several different uh 1000 pages volumes uh book volumes. I was just thinking, how much ahead do they plan their story? Because sometimes the story flows so well that one as a reader would think. Oh OK. So this guy before he started his story, he might have had uh II I don't know 1000 pages of detailed plot, plot lines or scenes that he would go through and he must have had everything planned from the start. But then you get to, I don't know the latest or what will be the latest book by George RR Martin the Winds of winter. And he's been trying to write it since 2011 and he's just like stuck beca and, and then, and then when that something like that happens when the writer goes for 12 years without being able to, to finish the sixth book in the install the sixth installment in the series. You're like, oh, ok. So wait a minute, let's track back a little bit because this guy hasn't planned that far ahead because now he doesn't know what to do with so many plot lines and with so many different things happening at the same time in the story. And then, you know, then sometimes readers read too much into something that came previously in the story and, and then they

06:49 Victoria Dougherty: expect it to come back and a plot line and, and it was never intended to be

06:54 Ricardo Lopes: that. Yeah. And, and, and sometimes it's just, oh my God, these, these here two books ago was foreshadowing or, and it's not foreshadowing at all. It was just that they coincidentally uh brought to the story, something that if you look back, it, it seems that 200 chapters ago there was foreshadowing for that, but it was not for shadowing at

07:23 Victoria Dougherty: all. I'll tell you when I look at someone like George RR Martin, I'm sure that Game of Thrones, the TV series was both a blessing and a curse because something like that, it, it really does interrupt your story process and you don't, you don't want it to kind of absorb into your vision for the story. But it does, I think that um the same is probably true uh for, for people who, um, for kind of established people with an established voice in their writing if they attempt to use a I for something more than say an outline, um, because it's, it, it, it begins to conflict with your own ideas, but it gives you ideas at the same time, but then you kind of lose sight of where you are. And I think that, that probably, I can't imagine that didn't have an effect on him to watch them in my, you know, in our opinion, badly finish up his series, right? And now there are all these expectations and he's probably got to do, you know, the double work of, for one of, I'm sure his work was interrupted by the series because he had to attend to that. But then to extract himself from the conclusions that the series writers made and also allow there to be perhaps time enough for fans of the television series to get unvested in the way that the series writers um develop the characters and end of the story so that they can invest in what Martin is writing. Um That II, I mean, I can imagine that's a huge challenge. I mean, II, I know a lot of people are so mad at him for not having come out with um with this latest uh you know, installment of Game of Thrones, but I completely understand it and I, I think he's probably doing the right thing, taking his time about it because unless he was just so in the zone and could finish it, despite the fact that he had this Blockbuster series going on, which, I mean, unless you're a hermit of a writer, how can you not be affected by that? Um, I think probably the more time he gives it the more, um, hopefully, you know, readers will be willing to reinvest in his, uh, in his vision for the story. I suspect he's gonna end it quite differently than the way it ended, don't you? I

10:10 Ricardo Lopes: hope so. I really

10:12 Victoria Dougherty: do. I mean, I, I really don't see it going any other way. Um, BECAUSE I mean, the way they ended, it was just so mind bogglingly television for God's sake, you know, I mean, it was just so it was so

10:26 Ricardo Lopes: amateur AAA and you know what I like is, uh, when sometimes writers are really honest about how they do things and how things work because I've watched a few months ago an interview with George Rrrr Martin and, uh, uh, the interviewers were asking him. Oh, so you've, uh, did you, have you seen that, um, that theory, uh, uh that was made by fans that's, uh, going around, uh, in the, on the internet about this or that, or is something that happened in the book? The, uh does it have this or that meaning? And he was like, and he was like, look, you can do with my story, whatever you want, it doesn't bother me. But people are sometimes read too much into your own work. It's not that complex. The only thing I have in mind there was this simple thing. It's not like connecting 1000 different points in the story. It's nothing like that. It was as simple as this. And so, and he also says that there are things for example, but his characters, for example, the color of someone's eyes or particular aspects of their personality or particular things that he mentions in the main story, but are, are not part of the main story. I mean, some of the background story to a Game of Thrones, for example, that he actually has to go and ask other experts on his own books because he doesn't remember anymore.

12:10 Victoria Dougherty: Ricardo. It's so true because I mean, I, you know, I, I write in usually in series form, at least like a loose series of, of, of, you know, books, there might be a series of books that are in the same universe and my kids are always kind of laughing at me because they'll see me like rereading my own books and they're like, why are you reading your own book? You know, like, because I don't remember what I wrote and I have to make sure that I have continuity. So I'm sitting there reading my own books, you know, taking notes going, oh my God, I completely forgot that I wrote that you know, because you, do, you forget it the way you forget things in your own life and, you know, a friend might be like, don't you remember when we did Xy and Z and you're like, no, I don't remember that at all. When did that happen? You know, and, and you know, to them, it was obviously kind of an, in a fairly important experience, at least enough for them to remember what happened and you're looking at them like, II, I got nothing, you know what I mean?

13:09 Ricardo Lopes: But, but, but it is,

13:10 Victoria Dougherty: it's incredibly detailed work writing a series and, you know, unless the series is, is very simple, you know, and, and, but um ok, there's just a lot going on, you're writing somebody's life and sometimes the lives of multiple characters and it can, it can, you can easily misremember what happened in your own story the same way you can, you can, uh you know, have a false memory about something in your own life and um interpret a whole series of events differently because you remember it differently than other people who are experiencing it.

13:55 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. But, but that's the thing because we, because there are people who are able to create such good stories. We sort of tend to idolize them and think of them as being people who died with, I don't know, 200 IQ and perfect memories and a big planners and they, they, and, and like they are the, the, your book in their head from the very beginning. But actually, uh, uh, uh, I, I mean, I've never wrote a book but I would imagine that perhaps most of the time you're actually rereading and rewriting,

14:41 Victoria Dougherty: for sure. I'm doing something right now that I've never done before. Um, I'm writing a Cold War Detective. No, our series, but I'm gonna finish the first. Uh, WELL, I'm gonna call it a season. It may never have more than one season, but I'm kind of using television language for this because it, it, it seems appropriate for the way I'm structuring it. I, I want to finish the entire first season which will be several books, not like super thick books, like my breath series is thick. It's, you know, it's historical fantasy. So they're like, you know, 450 pages, whatever. Each, these are barely not, you know, they're, they're novels but they're Detective Noir. And so they're more in the style, you know, well, obviously more in the style of, but also, you know, it's more of what you would expect from. Um, YOU know, Dashiell Hammett and other noir writers. Um, BUT I, what I'm gonna be interested to find out is if I prefer writing the books, one at a time being able to sit on them for a while, think about it, then write the next book or to essentially write it like, you know, one big story, one big book um, but all at once, basically, you know what I mean? All at once, write all these books at once. And, um, you know, my intention is, you know, I'm, I'm doing a little experiment here. My intention is to, uh release them quickly and sequentially because I'd like to see how that works. You know, I'd like to see if, um, if, uh, it becomes more, you know, if, if it becomes in inspiring motivating for a reader to just, you know, go through the entire series at once this way with you kind of in real time as they're being, um as they're being introduced and launched. I'm, I'm rereading this, this book right now and I'm really just at the very beginning, but I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying the experience a lot. It's called The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. I mean, it's like 30 years old. She was an ex-wife of Martin Scorsese and she's, she's kind of made, she's a writer too, but she also made a second career basically out of um unlocking people's creativity. Yeah, kind of this, this sort of motivational style teacher. But um it, and, but somehow this was a book I never ended up reading, like, I, I love books, like Writing Down The Bones by um Natalie Goldberg. But um I, I'd never read the Artist's Way. And even though it's, it's probably the most, um it, it, it's the kind of book that I would most relate to because it does kind of take this, this spiritual approach to creativity and, and, and, um that's something that's, you know, very much part of my personality makeup. But it, it kind of takes you through the process of sitting with a story and, and being in a place where you can eavesdrop on the characters, which, uh you know, a lot of it's that it's easy to get out of that place and to put a lot of pressure on yourself and be like, oh my God. Now I've got to write this and I think that when you stop eavesdropping on your characters, you start putting, um, kind of undue, focus on maybe the setting and you can write, you know, three pages of expo exposition, just sort of describing where people are and you don't need three pages of that. You know, it's, it's usually not always. But, um, you know, you can really become tiresome for a reader if you're not, um, in the zone, if that makes sense, you know, if you're not in a, in a place where you're able to listen. Yeah. And I think being in that place where you're able to listen makes it, um, will make, it, makes it a lot more likely that, uh, you're also listening to the needs of the reader, not just to your own needs. Mhm. But anyway, so I, I'm, I've started on this and I'm trying to get up earlier in the morning. And read it before I start work rather than reading at night, which is my usual, um, mo, uh, because I just get so tired at night that I really can't make it past a couple of pages anyway and I just fall right, right asleep. Um, BUT it's interesting and it's, it's also, I started reading it because I, um, I, I've started book coaching someone, a friend of mine who's wanted to write, uh who's a very good writer and a creative person, but who has never written a novel and has, and wants to write a series, which the idea for her series is just terrific. So I'm really excited about it. It's been a lot of fun coaching her and, you know, I've kind of book, coached people in piecemeal throughout the years, but it's something that I've never really wanted to commit to, um for one because I have three kids at home and you really, you can only do so much. But it's, it's, you know, it, it sort of came at the right time because I'm trying to write this series, you know, which is very different from, it's very different from the way I usually write. And so I'm, it, it's also forcing me to take my own advice and to follow that. Um So that's that, I don't know where else to go with that. But, um, oh,

20:42 Ricardo Lopes: ok. So le let me put, let me put a pin on that book coaching thing because I want to get back to that. I don't know if to, if today or next time. Let's see, because I, because I have a particular uh interesting, let's say thought experiment to ask you about that

21:03 Victoria Dougherty: thought experiments. We always talk about thought experiments when we get together. It's great.

21:08 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. But, but le let me ask you this, uh are there times where you get a little bit frustrated about what you think are perhaps some of the limitations of your medium? There is limitations of being a writer instead of being, for example, uh Mange or someone who creates uh comics or uh a film director. Just because for example, in those particular cases, they have visual aid to the story, right? I mean, are, are there times where you, where you think? Oh my God, if I was doing a movie instead of a book or if I was doing a comic instead of a book, this would be so much easier to portray or I, I mean, I'm not trying to ask you here, of course, but I'm not, I'm not trying to imply that that uh a book is better or worse than cinema or comics or whatever. It's just that perhaps you think that there are particular things, particular aspects that you think that perhaps are better than or portrayed in mediums where you have a visual aspect to them. For example,

22:27 Victoria Dougherty: I, I think that is, yes, I mean, the, the short answer is yes, I, you know, I, you can almost see that at play in any medium. You can see where uh on occasion, at least where um the creator had to invent a device. Maybe it's a narrator, you know, who, who in a film, you know, who kind of talks over what's going on. Um Because they, they simply weren't able to adequately tell the story without that. And for sure, there are times because I'm a really visual person. I love film, you know, II, I enjoy film as much as I enjoy reading a really juicy novel. Um So there are many times when I'm writing something and I really have to stop and think because I'm trying to um explain something that's very visual and yet I don't want to do it in a way that bores or exhaust the reader. And I'm, you know, I'm sure that that's the case and for someone, you know, creating manga or, um you know, comic books, comic books, you know, it's not like in most cases, you can have someone do a monologue that's this long, you know, I mean, you have to have a very crisp, it's kind of like tweeting, you know.

24:01 Ricardo Lopes: Well, well, actually, actually it's nice but, but actually it's also interesting because there are many different kinds of styles for comic books and manga because there are um some creators that let's put it this way, they are very verbose. So sometimes you get almost walls of text and you are like, oh come on, it's, you know, to

24:30 Victoria Dougherty: me, then you lose the visual and the whole point is the visual. It's the play between the words in the bubble, right? But

24:37 Ricardo Lopes: some of those creators are actually very good and sometimes that sort of wall of text is needed or warranted. But, but, but there are others and again, I'm not saying that one way is better than the other. It's uh whatever you prefer. But there are others that they almost do not have any text at all. It's the, they are so good with uh telling you a story just through images that they uh they just need one word here or there. Sometimes they even o on a single page, they occupy it with an image and then one single vertical wor word or something like that and it's enough. So, you know, it, it is, it's, it's amazing how uh the many different ways there are for people to create great stories, I guess

25:42 Victoria Dougherty: there, there are and they're infinite, aren't they? And, and it just sort of depends on um on, on the way on the creators approach and what their, what their own skills are. No, you know, some are, it's amazing when you read some books that are so dialogue heavy and yet they don't feel that way because, you know, reading just a bunch of dialogue can without any descriptors, you know, without anything in between that tells you where they are or, you know, how a character, a little movement that a character might have made that, that lets you know what exactly they're trying to say. E even though, you know, they might be talking about the weather but really they're talking about something else underneath and, and, you know, that just because of, you know, a look, they give someone, you,

26:34 Ricardo Lopes: you know what?

26:36 Victoria Dougherty: It's incredible to be able to do that without that, you know, without those, that those descriptors, you know, and just to do it through dialogue. And then on the other hand, you have other people who will have almost no dialogue at all, which can also be dreary and yet are able to communicate a scene, a party, a cocktail party where everybody is talking, you know, without hardly a single word of dialogue and yet it's incredible, you

27:03 Ricardo Lopes: know, OK, so I'm going to give you two different examples. So, uh first of all, I'm uh a sucker for a good dialogue story. I love, I love dialogue. I mean, even in movies, one of the things, one of the criteria that I use to classify a movie as good is it has good dialogue. OK. So for me, it's almost all of what

27:30 Victoria Dougherty: makes, makes me wanna throw rotten tomatoes.

27:33 Ricardo Lopes: But, but there's, there's a movie, I don't know if you ever watch it, watched it. Uh My dinner with Andre.

27:42 Victoria Dougherty: Oh, yes. Oh my

27:44 Ricardo Lopes: God. Look, there's the visual aid there for sure, because it's a movie. But still, it's one of my favorite movies and it's just, it's as simple as you can get. It's like two guys, two guys

28:00 Victoria Dougherty: having dinner and,

28:02 Ricardo Lopes: and, and having A&E long conversation about anything and everything. And I really love that movie and, and then on the others on the other side, uh there's a Portuguese writer from the 19th century called S Kos. And uh he's magnum opus or at least the book that people consider his magnum opus. It's even mandatory reading here in Portuguese schools is uh the Mayas in English and Portuguese Mayas. But anyway, and he, he is, he was a realist writer. I mean, realism from the 19th century where many times some of those writers were really heavy when it comes to description, I mean, sin, description and describing places and all of that. And I mean, I love the story, but I have to be honest whenever it gets to the descriptions, I have to skip them because it's just too much. I mean, he describes every single object in the room and I'm like, oh, come on, man.

29:19 Victoria Dougherty: Well, yeah, you have to. II I feel at least, yeah, I mean, I guess you don't have to but um I, I feel like you want to leave something to the imagination of the reader for them to fill in you know, you want to sketch it for sure. And you want to give them a little color here and there. But that makes it the reader's own too. That's how, you know, readers feel a sense of um investment in a look about to use their imaginations

29:49 Ricardo Lopes: too and about the descriptions. I don't know if you agree with me on this or not, but the descriptions I like the most are the ones where you are describing relevant things to the story. So I don't know, let's think about the concept of uh Chekhov's gun. OK. So you're describing the gun but the gun, the gun gets used but you, but just describing all the chairs, the tables are, these are that way and then it doesn't matter at all to the plot because you're not going to use the chair or the table or the call or whatever, or the chandelier or whatever. I, I mean, it's just too much for me if you're describing things that do not. I, I mean, I understand that descriptions might also not be used useful for the plot itself. It's, it's just describing a beautiful scenery or a beautiful house or I, I understand that people might like that, but for me, it's just uh I, I don't know, it breaks the pace of the story, you know, I

31:04 Victoria Dougherty: don't like excessive description and I, I think I've, I think I've committed that sin as a writer by the way. And um often I'll just speak for myself. It, it, that, that needs to be taken out, I think during the editorial process because I think sometimes when you're writing a story and you're listening and on that story, um you know, you're, you're building the environment in your own mind. If you haven't, if you're not the kind of person who builds it excessively on the front end, which I don't do. I, I feel like I find that inhibiting and, and then you're always at least I am not you. But then I'm always checking to see what was it that I said needs to be in that. Oh, well, I guess I should write that in and that interrupts my flow. Um But for sure. And then, then what you're faced with sometimes most of the time is that at least in some parts of your story you've over described because you, you know, you get into a room and you're like, well, where, what is this room? And then you, you know, you, you describe it and sometimes you might even describe it really, really well and you've got to make the decision then and not be vain about it for heaven's sake and say, OK, that's a great paragraph. But it's got to go or it's got to be cut by two thirds because who cares? You know what I mean? It's inhibiting and it's, it's clunky. It's, you know, you, you, you, you not enhancing the experience of the

32:42 Ricardo Lopes: reader and look again again, people who like that kind of thing perfectly, perfectly fine. I, I, I'm not bothered by that at all, but hi myself, I'm, I'm a character and plot guy characters and plots are the, the, the two most important things for me. I mean, you can even be uh, extremely bad at describing places and it doesn't matter much to me as long as the, the characters are well developed and the plot is interesting.

33:22 Victoria Dougherty: II, I agree. I love character driven stories. They're my favorite. I like a good plot. You know, I've been, I, I want there to be a plot, um, with the characters but those are the two most important things to me. And I think that, you know, like some readers, you know, the sort of, um, you know, the, the Dan Brown stories, for instance, those, those are great. They plot their plot, plot, plot, plot, plot. Um, IT'S, they're for people who love puzzles. Yeah. And a lot of mysteries are that way, you know? Exactly. Not exactly how they're going to end. You may not know exactly who did it but you, you know the procedure through the story and it's, it's, it really is like playing a game, um, a board game or doing, uh, doing some kind of, um, word puzzle, a crossword puzzle or whatnot. And I, I like a little more than that. It's kind of, you know, why I like, uh, mystery writers. Like, um, well, I feel like PD James does a really great job that she, she creates a world and it's not just a puzzle.

34:34 Ricardo Lopes: Oh, no. Look, II, I definitely think that, I think that the crime stories are some of the best ones out there to explore human psychology. For

34:45 Victoria Dougherty: sure, for sure. And that's why I love to read. I like to explore human psychology. I like to be the person sitting there, you know, watching people go by. I like watching my own behavior. Um And as you know, and I like to be as detached about it as possible and, you know, understand my own motives in a, in a kind of clear eyed way. And I like to do that with others. It's um I, I just find that to be really, really interesting and, but,

35:18 Ricardo Lopes: but the, the then Brown books look, I, I know that perhaps I will be crucified by some intellectual people. But I actually like Dan Brown. I

35:33 Victoria Dougherty: do. No, no, no, I, I was, I, that wasn't a criticism of Dan. No, no, no. I think I'm saying it's a certain style of writing that is, that's plot focused and hugely addictive because it's a puzzle and it's primarily a puzzle. It's not that um his characters aren't, aren't interesting, but that's not the focus of the book. Um What is it, the character in it is in Robert Langdon? I think the professor really interesting concept for a character, but the character doesn't get developed in any massive, you know, or, or deep way. It's about the puzzle. And, um you know,

36:17 Ricardo Lopes: uh but, but by the, by the way, since, since you touch there on character development, I also wanted to ask you this. So because people, uh I, I mean, at least the more critical kind of people, they tend to uh talk a lot about uh developing and liking a multi-layered characters that is characters that are not just one dimensional and that are psychologically complex. And I mean, uh but what does that mean? Exactly? Because uh sometimes, so ju just to, I, I mean, run through a sort of abstract example, but sometimes people complain about characters being one dimensional. But then uh on the other hand, sometimes people also complain about characters breaking character and, and sometimes it seems a bit weird to me because not always, but some of those times what people are referring to is, oh, so this character did something in this particular situation or uh behaved toward another character in a way that doesn't uh doesn't go along with the kind of expectations you have for him. But I, isn't it a bit weird because we ourselves in our, let's say real lives, we don't behave the same way with everyone, right? I mean, I mean, I, I mean, we, we have, we behave differently depending on the person we, we are interacting with and the kind of relationship we have with them. Right. So, so what I'm trying to say is, oh, I don't know. Let's say that someone, um, I know, let's say that you're talking about Tony Soprano and he is a criminal and he's a very tough guy or, I mean, apparently tough guy. Uh, AND, uh, uh, and then, uh, suddenly he's a guy who can't really hurt Children and animals and all of that. I, I mean, people, perhaps, sometimes people are expecting for a criminal to be a psychopath and to be bad to everyone around him. But that doesn't need to be the case necessarily. No,

39:03 Victoria Dougherty: they can be, um, they can act in, you know, what can be viewed as a psychopathic matter under very certain circumstances. I think, um, terrorists are a great example who might themselves have, you know, completely normal family lives if you went home and have a wife and Children, whatever it is. Um, AND then under a very particular circumstance they're capable of doing horrendous. Thanks.

39:38 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. Um, BUT, but

39:43 Victoria Dougherty: like with war, you know, that's something that happens a lot more common under, under really intense circumstances like that. It's something that, you know, a soldier has to contend with. It's something that someone who is, you know, in an occupied land or is, you know, an aggressor has to contend with all of this, even if they think that they have every right to be doing what they're doing.

40:04 Ricardo Lopes: But, but, you know, now that I've described that to you, that sort of, uh, I don't know, contradictory or conflicting view that people have of characters where they expect them to be one thing, but at the same time, they want them to be multi layered. And so, I mean, and now now that I have described that to you, it came to my mind that perhaps the way people react or think react to or think about characters is the same way we think about real people because we expect people to be, let's say a good person or a bad person every time toward everyone in every situation. But sometimes people are just different people in different situations, they behave differently to different kinds of people and sometimes people are behaving unexpected ways as well.

41:01 Victoria Dougherty: It's true, human beings are predictable only for kind of it for short spurts. You know, you might be able to predict if you, you know what I'm saying, you might be able to predict um the way a conversation will go in the first few minutes because you're exchanging pleasantries. Not always, but, you know, sometimes the conversation starts off and it's, you know, it starts off in a completely different place than you never expected. But, you know, you can pretty much predict when you run into someone on the street that you haven't seen in a while that, oh, nice to see you Ricardo. How are you? I'm doing well. Can you believe this weather? No, I can't. Sure it is hot for this time of year. You know, you can predict it until a certain point and then you have no idea. If you actually sit down with this person and you don't, you know, go your separate ways, you have no idea really where that conversation is going to go. Um, BUT II, I, I think when two things happen, when someone says, oh, I, I didn't like that because that character wouldn't do that. Um Either it's because the writer failed. They did not, um, at least at that point have the skill to help take you on that character's journey and show you how the character, um, you know, kind of build the latter rungs between this behavior over here and then this seemingly out of character behavior over here. Um It could be because of the, uh, reader's expectation that, hey, I wanted a happy ending. I thought those two were gonna end up together, you know what I mean or whatever, you know, and, and their expectation kind of superseded, maybe what was organic to the story in their own mind, at least. And, um, so they, they could not accept the story that the writer actually wrote because they wanted. This is what I wanted. I mean, you, I, I think you and I have talked about um, certain genres like the romance genre, for instance, that um, a book is not a romance and unless it has a happy ending then it's not a romance that it's a love story. If it has a, you know, a different ending other than, and they lived happily ever after or they lived happily ever after for now, you know what I mean? Um, AND so, uh, you know, you, a writer has to be very careful depending on the genre that they're writing in. Because if you are writing a, a AAA piece that is pretty strictly adhering to genre, you're setting up very specific expectations for the reader. And if you deny the reader what they're expecting, um you'll be punished for it. Now, if the reader is expecting something that's genre bending from the get go, they'll usually go on that journey with you if they like your writing, you know, assuming that they actually like what you have to say and um and they'll enjoy being taken on that journey and they'll say, oh my gosh, can you believe that this happened? Um And, but it, it, it, it does a lot of, it depends on expectation. And I, I think also, I think a, a writer or creator has to be careful not to um not to make a character, do something or create a situation just for the sake of creating it because they want to do something different or because they want to make a, a political point, you know, it's, or or, or a personal point, you know, it, it, that's kind of where the artistry comes from is understanding what is outside of what you're creating, what is organic to the story that you've set up and you've perhaps, you know, written the bones off. But the, the fact is there's something else going on besides, um, besides your, you know, your expectations, your original expectations for the story. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I started to write something and then, and I've even had it, you know, plotted out and everything. And then I realize at some point in the story that something has to change because I start to recognize and this can be really painful by the way because it can undo a lot of work you've already done or it can just hurt because you, you're realizing that something really painful has to happen in this story and, and writing that is painful. You know, if you have to kill a character for instance, that you've become really attached to and you're realizing, oh my God, this person can't survive this. I didn't realize that when I was writing it. You know, I thought this person was gonna survive. I thought this person was gonna go on and, and do you know the things that I had prescribed for them? But I'm realizing right now that they're about to get it in the neck.

46:23 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. No. No. About the ex the expectations So several ideas. So one of them is you really get to have direct contact with how different expectations make people love or hate stories. When there's an ongoing story. And you go, for example, to online forums and people are trying to uh trying to imagine what we like happen next in the story. And then there are people that say, oh the X should happen. And then there are people that say, why should happen. And there are people that say, oh wherever, wherever uh let's see what happens and then we'll see if it's good or not. And when the uh for example, people who got it right? Usually like the story, people who got it wrong usually. Yeah. And then the ones that were just open to see where things would go. I mean, most of the time, if they already like the story, they keep liking it sometimes it's just, oh, this was a bit silly. Uh And then also you mentioned uh politics at a certain point there. And I was thinking like, ee even politics, sometimes, even if a book is heavily political, sometimes it works. So it just, just think about Ayn Rand's Atlas Rugged. I, I mean, for me, that book is awful, but Libertarians, they love the book. It's like, it's like the best book

48:07 Victoria Dougherty: ever. Conde's books are I think, beautiful and they're, I think he was absolutely robbed of the Nobel in literature, but they're highly political. You know, um, I don't think it's ever, I, I think that the, the story is at the forefront and the story is so compelling which is what makes it, um, which is what makes it so good. You know, even though he has a very clear political point of view, I mean, it's kind of impossible to miss but, and, and it's interesting because what I, I read it's just the opposite. Her politics are fascinating. You know what I mean? And, you know, her characters aren't that great. The story is interesting. I think the plots are pretty interesting but the characters aren't that great but her, but she is, she is such a force. She is so interesting that, like, like you said, particularly libertarians, particularly if you are, um, you know, highly susceptible to that point of view. It's riveting for you the way, you know, happily ever after is the only acceptable outcome for someone who is a true lover of romance.

49:28 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. And, and the same for the same for people on the left. I don't know if, you know Berthold Brecht or a writer from the, I think the late 19th century. And, I mean, his book

49:42 Victoria Dougherty: I haven't read.

49:43 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, he, his books, his books are like a cheesecake for leftists. It's, it's just, it's just like bashing the powerful uplifting the Van Dren. Yeah. But, and I mean, the books are ob, uh, objectively speaking, not that great, but for someone who is

50:09 Victoria Dougherty: just for someone who, who, you know, wants to experience that. Right. Yeah.

50:15 Ricardo Lopes: And then uh just going back to the character for a second. Uh Also there are particular kinds of uh stories or fiction where a sort of one dimensional characters work pretty well and work best. So for example, Mr Bean, the, the comedy series, I mean, I mean, Mr Bin is the simplest character, you can create the, the thing there is about creating funny situations. It's not really about the character being extremely complex. It's a very simple character, but it's a great comedy series, right?

51:04 Victoria Dougherty: No, it's true. And that's, that's kind of WW well, you know, that goes back to, to whatever the particular strengths of the writer are because there are people who are incredibly good at creating circumstances that force the characters to react to the circumstances and then others do the inverse where the creator or the creators, where the characters influence the circumstances and all you wanna do is is follow that character around and you know, watch them influence their environment to watch other people react to them, other characters react to them, watch how an organization might change by the addition of this person, you know, or um God, what is it that there's a great um what is it called? Oh God, I'm not going to bore you with it then because if I can't recall it, I'm not gonna sit here going now. What was that. But the story was basically about um a bureaucrat who likes things to be the absolute same all the time. It's an old Thurber story, James Thurber I believe, and a woman is hired into this company to make changes as his boss. And that is very bad for this guy. He does not like change. And so he goes about orchestrating her demise, you know, I mean, not her literal demise but her demise in the company. And it's just, it's just so funny. Oh my God, the only story that I can think of where those two things play together in this sort of like Escher like way. You know,

52:48 Ricardo Lopes: now let me just say and you're probably going to laugh at this. But uh when you describe the character uh uh as being uh a guy who wanted for uh things to be always the same way. It, it, it this is for you to uh to try to see, to have a glimpse at how my mind works. What came to my mind, someone who has, who likes to have control over everything around them. And then the two stories that came to my mind, Citizen Kane and 50 shades of Gray. I

53:28 Victoria Dougherty: got two stories that can possibly be more different, right?

53:33 Ricardo Lopes: But this is just for you to see how my mind works.

53:38 Victoria Dougherty: I think that's a good line.

53:41 Ricardo Lopes: Oh my God, this would probably make for a, a good uh stand up plot.

53:48 Victoria Dougherty: So I was thinking about Citizen Kane and 50 shades of gray came to mind.

53:55 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. Rosebud has everything to do with B Ds M for sure. Yeah. Oh my

54:04 Victoria Dougherty: God. You know, the, the, I hope I haven't mentioned this on one of our conversations because I think we did talk about 50 shades of grey at one point. But I, I thought the most interesting thing about the 50 shades of grey phenomenon came out of the prison system. Oh, really? Yes. Um, I read this, this was back when, like, this was back when 50 shades of grey was kind of first out and it was first a huge phenomenon and everybody was reading it. And, um, the, the article that I was reading, the writer focused on the fact that in men's prisons it was number one, what men were reading in prisons and in women's prisons, it, it didn't even crack the top 10, maybe not even the top 20 which is sort of the opposite of what was happening outside of prison. Right. And as I was reading it, I was thinking, well, that makes sense because those women are in prison probably because they killed the son of a bitch just like this guy. You know what I mean? They're used to being treated that way and they don't glamorize it, you know, they're like, you know what, when I look at Christian Gray, I think, Mark or whatever, you know? And, but I just thought that was so interesting that, um, that, you know, women in prison weren't reading it that they had, they, they weren't interested in

55:30 Ricardo Lopes: it. But, you know,

55:33 Victoria Dougherty: the men were definitely reading 50 shades of gray. But,

55:36 Ricardo Lopes: but, you know, may maybe the minority of prison women or prisoners, female prisoners that were reading 50 shades of gray were the ones that those kinds of people where they, uh, like to get angry at the story. Oh, come on, I will keep reading or watching this because this is making me angry.

55:59 Victoria Dougherty: It's true. And it's, it's funny because there's this one, uh review that went, you know, viral on goodreads of 50 shades of gray. That was so funny. I mean, it was like crying funny, laugh out loud, funny. Um, AND she was a hater, you know, she, she and her brother were reading it out loud to each other hating on it. And, you know, haters can just be so funny though sometimes. So it was just, it was really, really good. Um, YOU know, speaking of haters, I, when we were talking about, um, stories that go kind of that, that perhaps betray readers expectations or defy readers' expectations, I was thinking about, um, the Star Wars Universe and I'm, I don't know if you're a Star Wars fan. I am not well versed in this. I saw the first three, you know, the ones that came out in the seventies and I love them as a kid, but I did not, I have not followed the series since then, since then. But what has been interesting to me is how angry Star Wars fans are at Disney for how they, you know, took, I apparently took the story sideways and, um, did not, uh give readers what they were or readers, readers watchers, um, what they were hoping for.

57:26 Ricardo Lopes: And it's also, it's also funny because if you go on the internet, sometimes there's ongoing wars between different fandoms and, and then, and then people vote on what's the most toxic phantom out. It's, it's like, oh my God, the Harry Potter fans versus the Lord of the Rings fans and the Star Wars fans versus the, the Star Trek fans and the other sci-fi universes. And then it's George RR Martin versus Tolkien versus whoever. And it's, it's

58:01 Victoria Dougherty: such, it's a trail.

58:04 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. So, uh le let me ask you another kind of question that I think is it's something that even over this is our 6th, 5th or sixth conversation. I lost count by knowledge. But all

58:20 Victoria Dougherty: I know is that I now like need glasses to see you clearly. Well, not when I, when I'm, when I sit back and I didn't when we first started. How's that?

58:31 Ricardo Lopes: Well, I also have some white hairs on my beard now and five years ago. Yeah.

58:39 Victoria Dougherty: Well, they're a little blurry to me so I don't see them I just see a nice lush.

58:42 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, probably on camera. It's hard to see them but I it, it's very easy to notice them in, in person. Anyway. Are there any things when you're writing a story that you just think to yourself? Ok. So I would never go there. There is for example, describing the very tiniest details of a crime or I don't know, exploring topics that you think are uh too immoral to explore in a story or perhaps creating characters that have specific idea is that you, that you think are too immoral. I mean, do, do you set any moral limits to what you would explore in the story or

59:37 Victoria Dougherty: not? Not that I know of because I think that it's, it's about, you know, how, how that is done. I mean, I don't, I, I can't imagine ever writing something that genuinely glorify something grotesque and doing it in a way that is, you know, obviously an endorsement, let's put it that way. You know what I mean? Excuse me, I, all allergies are upon me but II, I can't think of anything that I absolutely wouldn't address. I always thought that I couldn't address a child being hurt, uh especially being a mother. That's really difficult. I mean, it is really, really difficult. It's, you know, in the same way that it's, uh, it's also hard for me like to watch an, you know, a dog being hurt, you know, an animal being hurt in that way, but I did address it in a book and that kind of surprised me and I, and I did it because I realized that I'd set up the story in such a way that I had to address it. I couldn't leave it. I didn't get into, um, I didn't, you know, I didn't make a meal of it. Um, AND not that maybe that III I, I'm not saying that it would be bad to do that in all circumstances, but that's just not something that I wanted to do at all. But I realized that I did have to address it because, um, it was a sit, it was a war situation and a child was, excuse me, I'm sorry. And the child was killed. And, um, and it was in a, in a, a pretty awful way and by a pretty awful person. But, um, but I felt like I, I was shirking a responsibility to the reader if I didn't address that, um, the reader was invested in this story, was invested in the child. And also it was necessary for the development of another character, for that to happen to them, you know, and for, I, I had to create a circumstance that was awful enough that it would propel the story to where it needed to go if that makes sense. Um, SO, and I, not for any moral reason, I don't think it's, it's ne it's necessarily immoral to um, depict, uh, you know, a, a child being hurt or killed. I think that it de depends entirely upon context. But I never thought that I would write it because I thought it would just be too difficult and it was very difficult to write for me. I avoided it for days because I knew I had to write that scene and I, you know, oh, I'll do some admin today. Well, I, I have to write, um, um, I'll write an essay on Family Law, you know, whatever it is. I, I really, I avoided it in a pretty egregious way for several days until I finally sat down and said this is ridiculous. This has to get written and I'm gonna do it and it was such a relief to get it done. It's hard. I mean, it's very hard to write certain, yeah. Uh, TO write about certain topics and scenes. I mean, it, it is really hard.

1:03:20 Ricardo Lopes: Ok. So let, let me ask you then another question related to that. Have you ever read or watched something fictional? Of course, where you fought? O ok. So the author, the author here went too far. I mean, this is just too graphic, too detailed, too violent. Have you ever, ever, has anything like that ever happened to you? No,

1:03:56 Victoria Dougherty: not in something I've read. But there is, this a long time ago, there is a book that I read, which was a sequel. It was the sequel to, um, was the book Hannibal, it was the sequel to Silence of The Lambs. But the book version where I read it and I thought, what the hell is this? Do you know what I mean? Um So, you know, it, I, I really felt like I felt like the author had gone off the rails and was writing like a weird fantasy of theirs and not, what was this? Not the story that he had originally written book, it's his story. So, just by definition, I'm wrong, right? But as, as a reader, I felt like he did not, um, that I felt like he'd gone off the rails and not in a grotesque sort of way. Not like, oh, I don't want to read that but, you know what the hell kind of way. But no, I've never read anything that I can remember that. Um, THAT I couldn't get through. I think often if you are absorbed enough in a story, well, one of two things can happen. You might love a character so much that you're like, oh my God, I know they're gonna die and I can't read that. You know, you, you, you skip ahead a few pages, you know what happened, you accept it but you just, you just can't go there. I understand that. But usually in what I'm reading, um, when I'm absorbed enough in a story, I can take it and I can understand why the author put it there in the first place and why, um why I have to be taken through that in order to, you know, get to the other side, you know, the other part of the story kind of like what I described with what I felt like I had when I had to put in, you know, a difficult scene about a child being killed. Um I, I put it there because I really didn't see any other way for the story to evolve, you know, to, to the, for the story to get to the place that it needed to be. And usually when I'm reading something II, I feel that as well that doesn't mean that there aren't parts of stories that I haven't read where I've winced. I mean, really what comes to mind that was so difficult to face was, um, Styron Sophie's Choice. Mhm. I don't know if you've read Sophie's Choice or if you've seen the movie.

1:06:48 Ricardo Lopes: No, I, that one particularly, I don't think so. No.

1:06:52 Victoria Dougherty: But, ii, I mean, the story about a woman named Sophie who, um, ends up in, during World War Two in a concentration camp and they make, she has two Children and they make her choose which one is going to be killed. Mm. Hence the title, I think they both end up being killed. Um, BUT, you know, they do, they both end up being killed but they make her choose which is, you can, I mean, for a mother that is like, it is so horrific to imagine yourself in that situation that you wanna look away because it's like, and III, I don't, I don't even know. I don't, I mean, it would, it would be hard for me to imagine uh, a woman being able to write it. Not because she wouldn't have the skill, but it's, you would almost need that the detachment of a man to write that. Not that a man is detached from his Children. That's not what I mean. But it is just, I mean, I can tell you as a, as a parent, it's so like, mm, it's a whole body experience. Um I can still like, II, I can still physically conjure the um the, the feeling that I would get when my child was hungry. Yeah. And again, I mean, ii, I certainly think a woman could write that. I'm not saying that she couldn't. But uh uh I mean, thyroid just did it so, so brilliantly, you know, and that was fascinating and tragic and horrifying and beautiful. OK. So

1:09:00 Ricardo Lopes: let me try to put it another way and then perhaps I can give a few examples of mine. Are there any stories in books, movies or any other kind of medium that you've read, watched? And uh after the fact you thought to yourself, OK. So even if this is a great story because of the way things are depicted, I don't feel uh is recommending, recommending it to other people. Have you ever had something like that or? I've,

1:09:46 Victoria Dougherty: I've, I'm not sure I put it quite that way. Like, I mean, there's certainly stories where I disagreed with the premise, maybe with their historical premise or with a moral ambiguity that, um, that, that the story, um, depicted, you know, I definitely, but I would never, I don't think there, that I would ever go so far as to say, um, well, don't read that because of it where I wouldn't recommend it. I'd, I'd say, well, it's interesting but here's what I think, you know. Um I, so I guess I don't, my answer is, I don't think so. I can't, I can't conjure something, you know, a memory of a time when I've, when I've read something and said I'm so offended by this. I think it shouldn't be or I would, I would discourage people from reading it. I told people when something really sucked, you know.

1:10:55 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. But, but that's, that's a different, that's a different kind of thing. But uh I wasn't thinking perhaps uh so much as being offended, but perhaps more as OK, so perhaps the guy here, the creator went too far in terms of the, the things graphically. And uh I mean, I don't think I would feel well recommending the II, I was able to go through it. I still think it's a good story, but I wouldn't feel well recommending this to anyone because even if the story is good, I don't think that people would be particularly enriched by being exposed to it. Something like that.

1:11:49 Victoria Dougherty: I, I can't, I can't come up with an example of that. I mean, if, if, if I felt that I don't remember, I don't remember the story and I think I would probably, if I felt so strongly about something I don't think so. Have you like, is there a story that you've read where you're like, wow, he, he or she should not have gone there? That was too much?

1:12:13 Ricardo Lopes: Ok. So I'm going to explain to you what happened here over the course of my life basically. So probably until 10 years ago, I was one of those people that was like, ok, so you should be exposed to great art of, of any kind. And it doesn't matter if it makes you feel unwell, if it makes you feel a little bit sick, even if it's good art, you should be exposed to it. But then, um, for example, uh I watched the anti-christ by Lars Von Drier. I don't know if you ever watched that one. Uh And I was like, I mean, it was very hard to go through it, particularly the last 20 minutes or something like that. But I went through it and I, I mean, I've never had myself, uh, I, I was never exposed to any story where I was like, ok, so I have to stop here. I can't go further. I can't take it anymore. That, that never happened to me personally. But then I tried to show to watch it together with a couple of friends from university back then. And one of them accidentally accidentally skipped the movie to one of the most violent scenes. And they were like, man, I, I can, I can, I can, I can't watch it. Sorry. Uh Look, this is just too much and then the same thing happened, uh when I tried to show, for example, my mother, a couple of movies that for this or that reason, she uh uh she doesn't like the uh I mean, to see certain kinds of things. And then, I mean, uh over time I got to a point where I sort of became more sensitive to the idea that perhaps there are certain kinds of graphic things, perhaps not so much in books, but in movies because you actually see the stuff that that's happening there where I, I mean, I, there are certain things that I really hesitate to recommend to other people because one thing that I think about now that I didn't consider before 10 years ago or so is OK, so this is a good story but is it really worth it for someone to be exposed to it? I mean, if someone is not and never watches this, uh are they, would they be missing on something, you know, and and, and now I, and now I think like that and there, and for example, the anti-christ is one of those movies. Uh The adaptation of 120 Days of Sodom by Pierre Paolo Paolini is another one of those movies because of the sexual perversion and all of that. Uh AND there are, there are perhaps a couple more, I mean, it, the list is still very small, at least the ones, the ones that immediately come to mind. But now I have, uh, uh, at least a small list of things that look and unless people ask me directly about them, I basically never mention them to anyone who is not at least familiar with the existence of that movie. For example.

1:16:09 Victoria Dougherty: II, I hear what you're saying. I, um, I think probably in my case, um, I, I tend to kind of do a pre emptive strike and I, I will avoid something that is that I just know I don't wanna see. Um, I mean, a good example is, and I'm not, I'm really not that big a horror fan but II, I think my son probably would have watched this with, would have enjoyed watching it with me. There's a series called Saw. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that

1:16:48 Ricardo Lopes: I've, I've watched, I've watched the movie. I

1:16:51 Victoria Dougherty: know that's not for me. I've never seen a single one of them so I'm not gonna judge but I know that's not for me. But what's really interesting to me is, for instance, you know, I'm the movie The Exorcist. I mean, granted I grew up Catholic, I went to Catholic schools, you know, but the movie The Exorcist was so terrifying to me when I was a kid that I had nightmares about it into adulthood. I mean, well into adulthood and my, you know, 16 year old daughter who I think first saw the original Exorcist, um, when she was a really little kid, all three of my kids have seen it. They think it's hilarious. I mean, hilarious. And they, they think that part where she throws up the pea soup is one of the funniest things they've ever seen. They think the special effects are terrible. I mean, the, that movie does not give them nightmares but a little

1:17:53 Ricardo Lopes: bit. But wait a minute if they watched the scary movies before watching The Exorcist because if they did, because if they did it's easier to understand why they would laugh because Scary Movie two is all about

1:18:11 Victoria Dougherty: right with James Woods and, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that. Exactly. Um, MAYBE, but I think also they genuinely think it's a funny movie. I mean, I think they genuinely think it's kind of like, like when her head spins around, you know, that was, that was so disturbing to me as a kid to watch that. It was absolutely horrific and to them they're like, that is so obviously not real, you know, what I mean? And they just think it's funny and, um, uh, so it, it, it, I'm, I'm always intrigued by people who are really into horror in this way and they don't mind watching people get hacked to death and they are completely able to separate, um, what they're watching with real life, you know, and be like mom, it's not real, don't you get it? It's not real. And whereas to me I'm watching it and I'm like, I know it's not real but it feels real. You know, I can see it and then I'm imagining this in my own life, but not everybody feels that way and they're, they're able to make that separation. I'm not one of those people. I, uh, you know, it's why I'm not, I mean, I love a great horror movie. I mean, I think we've talked about this, that the novel Dracula is one of my favorite novels of all time. I think it's so good. Well, I think the character is so good. Um, BUT I, I, you know, I could not be one of those people who loves horror and can watch saw and, you know, uh, the conjuring and something, you know, some other horrific thing back to back or like those simulated snuff movies that I think that is really horrific. To me, the idea, even if it's, if it's acted out on film and it's not real. And the idea of Snuff is, that's probably where I would just wanna throw up. Yeah, that makes sense. Now,

1:20:24 Ricardo Lopes: look, uh, horror, horror movies. Uh, IT, it, it might be weird but, uh, even when it comes to the list of movies that I don't recommend to anyone, not one of them, apart from perhaps the anti-christ, I'm not sure if it's classified as a horror movie or not. But apart from that one, there's not one single horror movie there. So horror movies, I, I don't say that I'm a horror movie fan. I've watched a ton of them just because until, until a few years ago I was addicted to movies. And so I've watched everything out there, even the 19 eighties slasher movies, I've watched all of them and most of them do not bother me at all. Some of them make me feel a little bit uneasy but not sick nor anything like that. So, but, but I, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm a horror movie fan but, uh, I, I mean, I guess that the things that perhaps when it comes to recommending them to other people bother me the most. It's when it, it involves things that can actually happen realistically in real life, you know, like, like for example, what happens in the anti-christ that could happen in real life, the sexual perversions in 120 days of sodom and uh uh uh uh oh, have you watched here Irreversible By Gaspar Noe with Monica Bellucci uh yeah, so that movie involves uh a, a very hard to go through rapes in, I mean, that

1:22:23 Victoria Dougherty: would be, that would be difficult. I mean, I, I would never go so far as to say, you know, that, that it shouldn't be a movie or anything like that, but there are definitely things that I would avoid because to me they don't have value

1:22:35 Ricardo Lopes: and, and for example, just a few minutes ago I mentioned Tony. So I know and in the Sopranos, there's also a rape scene. I don't know if you remember this. But there's one episode where his female therapist is uh leaving her office and she's raped by a guy. I can't remember exactly who the guy was. And I think that Tony Soprano eventually gets across that and kills the guy. Iii I can't remember. I can't remember exactly. But uh I mean, uh that 10 of course, it's always hard to watch those kinds of scenes. Always, at least for me personally, it's always because I, I feel my blood boiling because I get really angry just imagining something like that happening in front of me. And it really messes me up at least for a few minutes. But that one actually, I don't have any problem recommending the entire Sopranos series to anyone even with that scene and with other stuff, I don't have any problem at all, but irreversible. I think that they just went too far there. I mean, even I, myself, I watched the movie once and I can't watch the movie again ever again.

1:23:57 Victoria Dougherty: So I think probably for me what is, what would be, uh, a line crosser is if a movie was too nihilistic, um, and cease to have any moral dimension because I think, I think our lives have a moral dimension, you know, and, and I, it's also just deeply disturbing to watch something like that and be able to, um, uh, be able to take any value from that and apply it to my own life, which I think is why I read and it's why I write. It's why I watch movies. I mean, ultimately it's why I consume art. It's to be, um, enriched in some way. And if I don't find it enriching, it's funny you should mention The Sopranos because I too would recommend that series to anyone. But I remember when I stopped watching it, um, and I, I may have been pregnant at the time. It's kind of funny because when I'm, when, whenever I was, I was pregnant, there were certain things I could not watch and I could not, I mean, I just couldn't, I mean, I, I remember in one of my pregnancies kill Bill came out, by the way, I love Kill Bill. I watch it now. You know what I mean? I couldn't watch it. I mean, I couldn't, and, um, I remember an episode of The Sopranos and I I have not from that episode on, I, I never finished the series. It was a young woman who was a stripper at one of Tony's clubs and she was pregnant with this awful guy's kid and he beat her to death. Do you remember the scene? That was so disturbing to me that, and I knew that that guy was eventually gonna get it. You know, there, there was a moral dimension to the Sopranos actually. You know, but I, I'm pretty sure I was pregnant when I watched that. Um, BECAUSE I, I just couldn't, you know, I just couldn't go beyond that. Um, AND not in a judgmental way. I, I just couldn't watch it because it, you know, it was so, uh, it was disturbing to me on, on such a deep level.

1:26:34 Ricardo Lopes: Ok. So, II I made me

1:26:35 Victoria Dougherty: physically ill. I mean, I remember it made me physically ill. Yeah.

1:26:40 Ricardo Lopes: OK. So perhaps, uh, 01 of the things that bother me when it comes to how certain things are sometimes depicted is if you really need to do it that way or go that far because for example, in the Sopranos, the rape scene, you see some of it, but most of it is suggested, you know, in irreversible, it's not suggested at all.

1:27:16 Victoria Dougherty: I don't think

1:27:17 Ricardo Lopes: it's all there. And one thing that bothers me about that, it's not just the morality of it, but I, I, in, I wonder whether it's telling me that perhaps the author, the director, the writer, whoever is not that great at directing or writing because for, for me, someone who's really good at, uh for example, making, making someone feeling disgusted at the rape scene does not have to show it all the,

1:27:52 Victoria Dougherty: I agree. I, I, and I, and I, and I think the level of

1:27:56 Ricardo Lopes: disgust and I think it, and I think someone is a better writer if, uh for example, when it comes to books or, I mean, there's that idea of you show don't tell, right show don't tell. In the case of movies, I would say because it's all showing uh you show but not too much. Are you sure? But you're not uh describe, I mean, in, in that case, it's not describing but it's showing uh everything down, down to the details. Uh I

1:28:35 Victoria Dougherty: agree with that

1:28:35 Ricardo Lopes: and I, and I, and I think that perhaps there are times that's just too much, it's not needed. It's, it's just that's not needed to convey the same kind of, or, or to create the same kind of reaction in viewers or readers.

1:28:54 Victoria Dougherty: I would agree with that. I mean, it's funny, I was talking about this with, um, with a writer friend. Uh This is some time ago but when uh I sat down to write um this historical fantasy series, uh breath some years ago when I started it, um you know, it has a, a, a central love story to it. And at, you know, at the time, and I think this is largely still the case, really kind of explicit love scenes had made their way into just about every genre historical fiction. And, you know, it, it had, you know, left the confines of erotica and it was in science fiction, it was in historical fiction, it was in, in pretty much every kind of fiction. And I decided that I was not gonna do that. I decided that I was gonna have a very sensual love story and have it be, um, you know, hopefully very emotional and very compelling, but that I, that I was gonna have a fade to black approach. And I'm glad I did that because I'm, I'm for one, I'm really sick of being bombarded by explicit love scenes at this point. I feel like, um they're just there because I don't know, maybe the writer feels like they need to put it in there to attract the reader's attention. Um And that we just keep having to up the ante with these scenes and with these stories because it's now it's just not enough to have, you know, a passionate kiss or even like, or, or even, you know, regular sort of um sex that doesn't involve all sorts of tricks. And after a certain point, it's like, really, I, I mean, it, it's sort of like when, you know, that the James Bond franchise has to scale back, you know, like with the Roger Moore ones when they started going to space and all this stuff, it's like, no. Yeah. And they've kind of got to bring it back to a place where look, ok, now he's just using his fists and his gun. He's not gonna be in space. He's not gonna be doing anything, you know, we're not going to be going to the paranormal. We're not gonna make him do things that, that don't in any way seem realistic for this, you know, and now 56 year old man for God's sake with bad knees probably. Um So I, you know, that's, that's something that I, that, that I've come to feel strongly about. I think that um I think that the depiction of sex has just gotten ridiculous, but in a lot of, a lot of stories and not because I'm prudish about it. It's, I'm not, it's just I'm bored by it, you know, and, and I feel like we're constantly having to add more whipped cream and more cherries and more chocolate sauce and more peanut sprinkles and then the colorful confetti sprinkles.

1:32:13 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. No, but, but, but you know what, when it comes to uh love scenes, sex scenes, whatever, I mean, I don't have a particular problem uh in the way they are graphically depicted in more or less detail. I mean, perhaps sometimes I would say, OK, so this is perhaps uh no longer just a romance novel, this is perhaps already pornography or something like that. But if people are into pornography fine, I mean, I don't, I don't,

1:32:47 Victoria Dougherty: I don't have a moral problem with it in that regard. I don't have, I'm not prudish about

1:32:51 Ricardo Lopes: it. But the, the thing, for example, about irreversible and 120 days of sodom is that, I mean, in 120 days of sodom, I mean, it involves things that I wouldn't even mention here because this will also be on youtube. And it's just too much just to say that it's too much, even for people that watch regular porn, it's just too much

1:33:21 Victoria Dougherty: because it goes beyond gratuitous.

1:33:25 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. And the, and then, and then adding, yeah, and then adding the ribs in an irreversible, I mean, sometimes I find myself asking, I mean, isn't this wrong? I mean, and by wrong, I'm not sure if I mean, morally wrong or artistically wrong either because perhaps you shouldn't expose people to so much graphic stuff because it, it feels sort of wrong or because as an artist, you don't need to go that far. And so perhaps you're not as great an artist as you think you are or as you could be. And, and, and another thing that comes to mind and that when I really straight out say that it's morally or was morally wrong, for example, back in 20 I want to say 2015, possibly 2016, there was an, an art exposition in Germany or the Netherlands. I mean, I, I might be getting the date and the place wrong, but it was in definitely in Europe and definitely in the mid 2010. So uh uh someone uh put uh a dog in an art exposition. He was, he was tied to the by a rope, I think to, to the wall and then uh uh in front of him. But uh Alpa is rich. They put their uh a plate with food and the dog couldn't reach the food. And

1:35:09 Victoria Dougherty: I would, that would, that would infuriate me and the,

1:35:12 Ricardo Lopes: and the, and the dog dive of starvation in an art exposition. And when, when I, and, and, and, and I, I mean, I didn't see that directly. Fortunately, but when I got across that news, I was like, man, whoever did this? I don't, I don't care about abstract. I don't care about abstract well sounding artistic liberty. That's just play

1:35:52 Victoria Dougherty: cruelty, cruelty.

1:35:56 Ricardo Lopes: I mean, you don't do and I,

1:35:58 Victoria Dougherty: I, you're right.

1:36:00 Ricardo Lopes: You don't do that to a living being full stop it. I just stands there. I don't care about artistic liberty and those well sounding abstract words, I don't care about that.

1:36:14 Victoria Dougherty: I've never heard of that. And I'm, that's disgusting. I just don't even, I don't even understand. I don't think that's an artist. I think that's a sadist who is pretending to be an artist. I think that that's a very disturbed person because artists, artists understand the difference between their work and you know what I mean? They understand that it's pretend and that they're, they're, they're reflecting parts of the world around them and parts of their imagination. Um, BUT that's, that doesn't make any sense to me. I think that that artist was a sadist who was masquerading as an artist. I don't think that's, I don't, I, I don't even, I, I can't even wrap my head around. I

1:37:05 Ricardo Lopes: know, look, there, there are, there are troubling stuff in artistic creation but that one II, I mean, that, that, that, that went beyond all limits for me. That, that was just probably the worst thing I ever heard an artist doing. Uh

1:37:28 Victoria Dougherty: Yes, I agree. I think, um I can't think of anything in specific but I think that there, that there have been times when I've been reading something and I have felt uncomfortable because I feel like the artist is either describing something that they've done or want to do that is abhorrent. And I can't say what makes me think that they're not just that it's not just in service of the story. I, I'm not really sure what it is specifically that made me feel that except that it's, it, it's similar to when you just get a bad feeling about a person that you meet and you just think, I don't, I don't like that person. There's something about them and, you know, we just had a very, you know, perfunctory conversation. It's, there's nothing that I can point to specifically, but I don't have a uh I don't have a positive feeling about this person.

1:38:30 Ricardo Lopes: And, you know, I, I mentioned that example, that example specifically because in that example, there's no doubt that the guy who did that is an awful but, but, but I mentioned

1:38:45 Victoria Dougherty: something, there's something very sick.

1:38:50 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. But, but that's the point I wanted to get at because sometimes I find myself suspecting if there are particular kinds of creators, artists that, uh, include certain things in their stories because they, uh, uh, not because they just want to artistically explore this or that, or create some sort of emotional reaction but because they are actually sick in their

1:39:33 Victoria Dougherty: heads, I think, yes, I think for sure in the same way that I think that there are, you know, people go into certain professions that are honorable professions but they go into those professions because it allows them under, you know, the guise of, of either, um, you know, working with Children or being in law enforcement to act out certain fantasies of theirs that are not so healthy. You know, I, I, that's something that we always have to be careful of when, um, you know, allowing people to be a, in situations where others are vulnerable.

1:40:18 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. Yeah. A and look, just to be clear, I'm not saying at all at all that, all artists are the mature, all artists are, are bad people. I mean, one thing that at least I learned in life and uh I haven't seen any evidence that goes against it is that most people are decent people. And that means that sometimes they make mistakes, sometimes they do bad, bad things that, but most of the time they're just going on with their normal lives, they work, they have their families, they do their things they try to do as well as they can find. And then there are a tiny minority of exceptionally good people and then they are, there are also a t mi uh, there's also a tiny minority of monsters and, and, and, and, and, and, and that's also the tiny minority of artists po possibly that I am referring to here. So it's just that, that I'm saying, I think

1:41:30 Victoria Dougherty: you're quite right and I, to me the evidence for, for the fact that most people are, are basically good under most circumstances, you know, particularly if they're well socialized and if they're living within a, a healthy enough society with uh, appropriate rules and appropriate, um, punishments and, and, and, um, incentives. But if, if that weren't the case, we'd all be in pretty big trouble, you know, every time we left our house, you know, it would be like, like the movie the purge, right that my kids have seen. Um, SO I, I think you're absolutely right. I think though too, that, that tiny minority can cause a lot of trouble, the tiny minority of monsters. I mean, we can see that on social media first. I mean, I think that there are a lot of bots on social media. Um, AND, well, that's, I guess an example of that because here's somebody who's got a bot farm who has, well, the worst intentions and are, you know, dive bombing people's posts and saying absolutely horrible things, anything from just, you know, things that are uh abhorrent, just morally abhorrent to um racist or, you know, whatever it is just to, to kind of create the illusion that there are more people who feel that way than, than there really are. So that maybe they can feel less alone in their depravity. I think that that is, you know, part of the way that, um you know, a, a platform like, like Twitter. Um BUT it's not just Twitter. I mean, I don't mean to pick on Twitter because I actually, I like Twitter. I use Twitter, I use a lot of social media platforms and I think that they can be a force for a lot of good, but they can also be this weird sort of fun house mirror. It's funny, I saw this interesting, I, I passed this interesting post the other day and I wish I had saved it, but I think I can recall it but they uh the, the post basically described how certain social media platforms, um kind of cater to a certain one of the seven deadly sins. You know, Instagram is vanity. Uh I, I saw that Twitter is wrath, right? Um, BUT I, I, you know, Linkedin is Facebook is envy but I

1:44:03 Ricardo Lopes: tt is L

1:44:05 Victoria Dougherty: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I, I thought that was really smart because, um, you know, at their, at their worst and this is, this is what's so hard. I was talking to another friend of mine. She had, you know, been, she had built out a lot of um the Amazon's advertising console, you know, system. Um YOU know, she, she worked in that and as a result she uh you know, had, had been to conferences and such where there were people who were dealing with um you know, they were iii I wouldn't say they were content moderators but they had some sort of function within these uh social media companies that, that had to, you know, monitor bots and all of this. And she was saying how just like God, I, I would not want that job for anything else in the world because it's so hard and you can't even imagine all the crazy stuff that is happening. And um you know, the bot farms and the, you know, people who are, who are purposely, people and entities who are, you know, purposely trying to um mhm you know, change a narrative or, or make us see ourselves or see the world in, in this sort of fun house mirror way and, and how do you manage that? How do you, um, how do you get rid of the bots while still allowing people to speak and allowing that free flow of ideas to continue? It's very hard.

1:45:53 Ricardo Lopes: Yep. Yeah. But, but I mean, I just brought this uh, discussion to the table about perhaps the morality or immorality of certain, um, art pieces or certain artists and, and perhaps uh possible the ontology for artists or something like that because uh I mean, I, I don't know, e even I myself do not have any definitive answers to these questions. And uh and I, and I myself am not so sure even when it comes to that list, I've mentioned of films, I don't recommend to anyone if I should really not recommend them or I'm still sort of thinking about it. And that's why sometimes I bring that to the table when talking with certain people to see if I can uh figure out my own thought process. But uh I mean, it's just questions that I think are worth uh exploring because there are perhaps certain things that perhaps we give artists too much leeway. Uh And, and because they are artists, perhaps there are too many things that we excuse and perhaps some of them we shouldn't. I'm not sure.

1:47:30 Victoria Dougherty: Yeah, I'm not sure. II I tend to think that when someone goes too far as the artist with the dog did that, the way that we tend to um counter that is with a society healthy enough to condemn it and not reward it. And that's, I think something that we really need to be careful about in terms of um you know, how, how we structure our lives, how we structure our cultures and our societies and understanding um when bad behaviors cannot be tolerated and must be, um, must be not just openly discouraged but really deterred in, in a way that, that benefits the whole, right? But not in a way that, um, iii, I guess causes of, of this feels unfair and causes a reaction, you know, a, a counter reaction. But it's, it's, it's hard. I mean, I, I am not a moral relativist, you know, and I think that the moral relativism that has kind of gripped, um, that, that's, that we're in the grips of, and that we have been in the grips of for a few decades is not healthy. I think that we have an obligation to ourselves and to society at large and certainly to the most vulnerable to make a decision as to what is morally acceptable behavior and what isn't.

1:49:36 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. And, and you know, and if we don't,

1:49:38 Victoria Dougherty: we put, we put people in danger, usually people who are most vulnerable people who are poor people who are, you know, Children who, you know, cannot care for themselves and make decisions for themselves and that, um, we have to have the strength to stand up for, you know, what, what's, what is the best thing to do even if, uh, it can be harsh sometimes.

1:50:07 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. No, I know. And, you know, another thing that I find interesting here, at least for me is that, um, I tend to fall much more on the liberal side of the aisle when it comes to politics, economics and all of that. But when it comes to this particular artistic, moral questions curiously enough, I, I guess that all of the things I brought to the table here would be the things that you usually associate with conservatives as them, for example, saying that, oh, you shouldn't pick that kind of thing in art and where, uh, I mean, that, that sort of thing. But yeah, it, it is what it is so. Well, we

1:50:51 Victoria Dougherty: need both. I mean, really we need, um, without conservatives, uh, people who are more liberal and progressive would take us off a cliff and without liberals and progressives, conservatives wouldn't allow our society to grow because too cautious, we need both to work together. And I, I don't, I don't, I don't think it would be healthy to be, um, someone who only has a progressive mindset or only has a conservative mindset. I think that, um, you know, part of the culture war that we're having is the result of these two extremes which often sound very similar to one another. Um, HAVING arguments over the vast majority of people who tend to pick and choose their, um, their, their, well, their viewpoints, I guess a little, a little more, um, bipartisanly, let's put it that way. You know what I mean? And you can be a very liberal person and yet think, ok, I think that there are moral limits to what, uh, say a performance artist like the artist you mentioned should be able to do that. No one should be able to come to harm or no creature. Um No sentient creature like a dog, you should be able to come to harm because in the name of quote art, right? I don't, I think that that is reasonable to have that point of view and um just as it's reasonable to be, you know, a conservative person and, and say, I, I just, you know, don't, don't have a problem with uh finding a compromise on even an incredibly contentious uh societal issue like, um like abortion or, or marriage rights or what, whatever it is that that might be there, you know, and I think most people are willing to make compromises in between and most people understand that there are pros and cons to, to most issues and that we have to weigh those as, as, as a society. And if we're, if we're not weighing them and we're only kind of marching lockstep with um whatever side we believe ourselves to be on that, that doesn't really feel like progress either. And that doesn't feel like, um, like it will lead to a, a graceful and functioning society.

1:53:28 Ricardo Lopes: Well, actually, now that I think about it and um referring to the, that example with the dog, I think, I, I don't know exactly when that started. But uh uh uh uh don't you see now when many times in movies before the movie starts, uh, when they evolve animals a message there, something like no animals were, were hurt in the filming of this movie or something like that. So at least that's something that, uh, people care more about and think that it goes beyond, uh, artistic expression, I guess. Yeah, I

1:54:14 Victoria Dougherty: think, I think most people are, are horrified by that. I mean, really, I mean, isn't that, that the, the one of the signs of, of a future serial killer, someone who tortures animals as a kid? You know, I think that that is a pretty serious taboo. Um, AND rightly so, uh, of, you know, for one's own gratification to be hurting another being, you know, that's, that's something that even, you know, even with like, talking about 50 shades of gray that there's a reason why in those, in, in those, um, communities there are all sorts of strictures that are put into place so that, um, you never go too far because of how dangerous it is. Um, WHEN we do go too far. Yeah, it is dangerous. You know, I think that.

1:55:18 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, hi guys. Thank you for watching this interview. Until the end. If you like what I'm doing, please consider supporting the show on Patreon and paypal. The links are in the description down below and also please share like and hit the subscription button. The show is brought to you by N Lights learning and development. Then differently check their website at N lights.com. I would also like to give a thank you to my main patrons and papal supporters per Larson, Jerry Muller and Frederick Sun Bernard Seche Olaf, Alex Adam Castle Matthew Whittenberg, Arno of Tim Hollowing, Eric Aleni John Connors Philip for Connolly. Then the Metro Robert Winde INAs Yu Mar Nevs Colin Holbrook, Simon Columbus Phil, Governor Mikel Stormer Samuel Andre Francis for Agns Fergal cousin Hall, her Rag Michel, Jonathan lebron Jars and Ka. Eric Heinz. Mi Smith J We Hummel sad friends. David Sloan Wilson Yasi de Ro NP, please. Nicole Barbaro, Adam Hunt Pablo Stassi Alek Bach Ma he s of Zal Adrian Yi Paulin John Bar, poso Julian Price Edward Hall, Eden Bruner Douglas Fry Franco Beto Lotti Gabriel Cortez, Orli Scott Zachary FTD and Smith John Wilman, Daniel Friedman, William Buckner, Paul Giorgio, Luke Lo the Chris Williams and Peter Walla and David Williams the Costa Anton Erickson Charles M Alex Show. Marie Martinez, Coral Chevalier, Bangalore, Larry Dey Junior, Old Herring Starry Michael Bay. Then spur by Robert Grassy. Zor and Jeff mcmahon, Jake Zul Barnabas Rads, Mark Kempel Thomas Dubner and Luke Ni and re story Kimberly Johnson, Benjamin Gilbert Jessica Nowicki Linda Brandon, Nicholas Carlson, Ismael Bensley Man. George Cort is Valentin Steinman, Paul Crawleys Kate V Goer, Alexander Hubbard, Liam Dunn B. Masoud Ali Mohammadi Perpendicular Jonas Herner. Slow. Good enough, Gregory Hastings and David Pins of a special thanks to my producers is our web, Jim Frank Lucas to Tom Ween, Bernard Nic Ortiz Dixon Benedict Muller Thomas Trumble, Catherine and Patrick Tobin Jarl Montenegro, Al Nick Ortiz Nick Golden and Rosie and to my executive producers, Matthew Lavender, Sergei Adrian and Bogdan K Yvette. Thank you for all.