#1321 Emily Towner: Social Isolation and Social Media Use in Adolescents

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Ricardo Lopes, and today I'm joined by Doctor Emily Towner. She's a postdoc in cognitive neuroscience at Caltech. Her research focuses on adolescence and the brain. Her interests include loneliness, anxiety. Mental health and social media and today we're going to talk about how isolation affects adolescents, digital interactions, self disclosure, and the effects of social media on mental health, if any, we're going to discuss that. So Emily, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to everyone. Thanks, thanks for having me. So, um, I mean, starting with isolation and how it affects adolescents, uh, let me ask you first a more basic question here. So what constitutes isolation? I mean, when can we say that someone is experiencing isolation?

00:58 Emily Towner: Mhm, YEAH, it's a really good question actually, and Something that we had to kind of define when I was studying this during my PhD because people think about isolation and loneliness very differently, it's very broad, even just the idea of social connection is very broad and diverse, and, um, you know, you can think about like the number of people that you are connected to in your daily life, so, like your social network, which is a little bit more of like an objective index of social connection. Or you can think about more the perceived loneliness that you might have, um, which is more of, you know, a feeling state, and those things don't always line up. So I'm sure you've experienced this of kind of feeling like alone in a crowd. Sometimes you can be, you know, in a very crowded place, but feel very lonely, so. Um, I remember when I first moved to New York City, like, years ago, and it's, you know, the most crowded city that I had been to, but I didn't really know anyone, right? So you kind of feel quite, like, lonely, right, when you first moved somewhere like that, even though you're surrounded by people. And then I think the opposite also, you can be alone, but not necessarily feel lonely, you know, if you have one close friend, um, or you're an introvert or you just like spending time alone when you're really, like, Really like um immersed in what you're doing, you know, studying, playing a sport, something like that on your own, walking in nature, you don't necessarily feel lonely. So I think for humans, it's very um kind of complex and not necessarily, um, it's, it's related but not the same thing. In animal models, people often study isolation. Because you can't really ask animals, you know, how lonely they're feeling. So, um, isolation is a really common, um, paradigm for studying kind of stress. It can be considered a stressor or, um, just the effects of being alone, um, in animals. And we kind of, in my PhhD we wanted to translate some of that more experimental work into humans, which hadn't really been done before. So, people had looked before at, you know, correlations with loneliness. So, we often find in like large scale studies that loneliness is related to negative, like physical and psychological outcomes, um, even premature mortality and, um, cardiovascular risk and those kinds of like very physical things loneliness is associated with. But it's really hard to say whether that is um correlation or causation, as you probably have heard the correlation is not causation, um, kind of say. So, uh, it could just be, you know, that people with poor health, poor mental health are more likely to kind of be alone rather than the other way around. So, uh, We wanted to look at this a little bit more experimentally, but obviously in humans, you can't um ethically isolate people for a long period of time. So, we wanted to look at what even just short term isolation might do to your kind of cognition and behavior. So, um, Yeah, so we were looking really at acute isolation of just a few hours in adolescence. So hopefully that answers. I won't go too much further into it in case you have other questions.

04:09 Ricardo Lopes: No, no, no, no, I, I was just going to, I was just going to ask a couple of follow-ups, I guess. So, uh, I'm in isolation, if I understand it correctly, I mean when People refer to loneliness, it is not necessarily the same thing as being alone, right? Because there are people who spend lots of time alone and they don't feel lonely. I mean, loneliness is another kind of thing is really more of a sense of lack of. Connection to other people and you can even experience loneliness even if you have lots of people around you just because uh the connection in a sense is not there. I mean, am I, is what I'm saying right or?

04:58 Emily Towner: Yeah, definitely, definitely, it's like the subjective kind of perceived state of being alone. And also I think there's a good point that you made, kind of that it's the lack of social connection in relation to What you need as well. So, we think that people probably have different, slightly different needs as far as how much social connection they need to feel not lonely. So there could be some kind of individual differences too. Maybe some people, extroverts, maybe need like a lot of social connection to feel not lonely, whereas, you know, maybe people who like spending time alone need less of that to kind of fulfill their own social needs. So there could be a little bit of that too.

05:39 Ricardo Lopes: Right. So tell us more then about how you went about studying isolation, the results you got, and er I think you've studied it specifically in adolescents, right?

05:55 Emily Towner: Yeah, mhm. Yeah, and we consider adolescence anywhere from 10 to 25 years, so it's quite a big range. Um, AND we wanted to study kind of just one, we studied 16 to 19 year olds during my PhD, which is kind of like mid-ish, late adolescence, depending on how you, um, break it up. Um, SO just keeping that in mind that this could differ also by like the different kind of subcategories of adolescence, but we wanted to study this in young people because we know that adolescence is a period where people are very socially sensitive and very interested in connection and peer relationships. And so we thought that the effects during adolescence could be potentially even larger than in adults or in children. Um, AND a lot of this has been shown in the animal research, so whenever, um, adolescent rodents usually are isolated, there's kind of some different effects on their later behavior when they're isolated in adolescence compared to other time periods of their life. Um, SO, yeah, so we went about studying this, um, as I said, we wanted to do this experimentally, but, um, In a way that was acute. So, uh, during my PhD I worked with a postdoc, um, Livia Timova, who is a professor at Cardiff now, and Sarah Jane Blakemore at Cambridge. And, um, Olivia had done this study in adults before, during her previous postdoc, um, where she isolated people for 10 hours, and then compared that to a Fasting condition of 10 hours, and then looked at the brain craving response when people were shown the cues that they were deprived of. So, when they were shown food pictures when they were hungry, or social pictures when they were um isolated, and then um was able to see a very similar pattern in some certain brain areas that predicted, um, This social craving feeling. So, the idea that there could be like this similar feeling when you're craving social connection is when you're craving food when you're hungry, if that makes sense. Um, AND so we wanted to do this in adolescence, but then extend that a little bit to look at Some other forms of behavior. And cognition. So, also, like, what are the downstream effects of that. So, we did this in adolescence, we piloted it and we actually shortened the duration of isolation because, as I said before, um, adolescents are kind of more sensitive to their social environment, typically. So, we found that they were reaching similar levels of loneliness as the adults after about 3 to 4 hours. So, we did, um, 3 to 4 hours of isolation, and then we tested some different cognitive things. So we did um threat learning, reward learning, uh, risk taking, and then at the beginning, at a baseline, we did a um 70 MRI scan, so a brain scan to look at the predictors of sensitivity to isolation. And, uh, we had 3 conditions. So we had a baseline condition where they just had their normal day, where they were, most of them were kind of in school or something like that. Um, SO they saw a normal amount of people. Then we had 2 isolation conditions that were, um, counterbalanced. One of them, they spent 3 to 4 hours in a room in the the psychology department. Um, BY themselves, they had access to, like, games and snacks and stuff, but no social contact at all. Um, NO social materials or anything either. We didn't want them to have like, um, novels or music with words, things like that, but other than that, they could bring activities and things. Um, AND then we had one other condition where it was exactly the same, except they did have their phones and computers, so they could have basically social media, virtual social interactions. So, we wanted to compare that also with a complete isolation session. So, to see whether these kind of Digital interactions could kind of mitigate some of the effects of isolation on um These outcomes that we were interested in. And the outcomes, um, that we chose were some that kind of translate into different, uh, kind of risk markers for mental health, I would say. So, threat learning is, um, you might have heard, have you ever heard of the classic, like, uh, Pavlov's dog experiment. Yeah, so like this classical conditioning thing, um, where they salivate at the, at the, gosh, I can't remember the exact, I can't remember the exact,

10:37 Ricardo Lopes: it's, it's the sound of a bell,

10:40 Emily Towner: right? Yes, yes, yeah, it's the sound of a bell because the, the food, right, has been brought with that, yeah. But then there's the, the threat, um. Parallel of that where you kind of uh predict something threatening is coming from a cue, right? So this, I often think of classical conditioning is like, um, I was really afraid of public speaking when I was young, and so whenever I would have like a class that I knew I would have to do public speaking in, like a like a theater class or something, I would start getting nervous, even just like being in that room, you know, that's like a classical conditioning response, right, when you like, are in that room, then you, like, start all the cues are telling you that you're about to do the thing that you don't want to do. So, um, that's my, my personal example of, of classical or threat conditioning. So this is a Kind of a well validated experimental paradigm for risk for developing like anxiety, um, or just the propensity to, like, develop threat associations that could be related to anxiety in the future. So we chose that. It's also a paradigm that's really used in animal models a lot, which we were translating, we were trying to translate some of the um animal research to humans. So, um, something that can be studied in both species, which is nice. Um, AND so, yeah, so we looked, that was kind of the, the main focus that I had. We also split, we ended up splitting up the project into like some different parts, um, based on our different interests. So my component was the threat learning component. And yeah, do you have any questions about that before I like, tell you the what we found? Uh,

12:19 Ricardo Lopes: uh, YES, um, I mean. Tell us about the um uh uh the bit uh about the virtual interactions. I mean, uh, do we know if virtual inter interactions reduce social isolation in some way?

12:38 Emily Towner: Yeah, so that was kind of what we were interested in, in finding out. We, we have some research, again, mostly on loneliness and people self-reporting, whether they feel that they're connected when they're using these platforms. Although a lot of the research on that is also pretty sparse, um, pretty new. Um, AND people do report that it can be helpful for them to feel connected, you know, especially sometimes, like, groups who are underrepresented. Um, YOU know, if you're living in a small town and you don't have any friends who you feel are like you, um, that can be a place where you can kind of, like, create community, you know, online and meet people outside of your, of your immediate, um, environment, which can be really helpful for, for some people to feel connected. Also, um, yeah, keeping in touch, you know, with people, as we're increasingly global and moving all over the place, you know, it's, it's really nice to be able to To call people, um, and video chat them and things like that, and people do report that that is, um, you know, that makes them feel more connected, less lonely. Um, BUT there is a lot of debate about whether all types of digital interactions make you feel less lonely, like, social media, for example, is there's a lot of kind of controversy out there about whether that actually, like, helps or not, um. One kind of thing is the idea of like, active versus passive kind of interaction. Digitally mediated interaction, so maybe, you know, having like a video chat with your mom is really helpful, but, um, scrolling through Instagram and just seeing pictures of other people maybe isn't gonna make you feel like less, maybe it makes you feel more lonely, right, if you're comparing yourself to other people, seeing people have a good time or whatever, you know, so there's probably like some nuances to that, and it's probably not super straightforward, um, but I think Yeah, this was one of the, the most Interesting parts of our, our findings, basically. So, I'll tell you quickly the, the main result for the threat findings. So, we found that after isolation, adolescents had heightened threat responses, heightened threat learning. Um, COMPARED to baseline, and it was. Heightened both after isolation, complete total isolation, and after isolation where they had access to um digital interactions, and there was no differences between those two. So it seems to heighten that threat response similarly for both of those conditions, and the kind of theory behind that maybe is that there's this like evolutionary theory of loneliness, where um Being kind of vigilant to threats is probably adaptive evolutionarily when you're alone, right? Because if you're out in the middle of nowhere by yourself, you need to be more kind of on edge, right? Like paying attention to threats in your environment, um, whereas if you're surrounded by a group, maybe you can relax a little bit knowing that other people are kind of watching out for you or, or, you know, protection in groups and stuff like that. Um, SO that kind of makes sense, I think. And, uh, but then again, it's all about that kind of fit, right? Because like these, these evolutionary responses that we Developed, were kind of You know, developed in the The ancient time where it was adaptive because we might have been eaten by a predator, right? Where it's like today, you know, it's, it's it's unlikely that we'll be, we'll be eaten by a predator, but we might develop anxiety, you know, over something that's not really that um. Not really that threatening, right? So, that's the kind of trade-off. Um, AND I think the really interesting thing in our study was that we didn't find any differences in threat learning between those two conditions, but people reported feeling less lonely when they had access to digital interactions. So, it was kind of like you would expect. They were least lonely at baseline. They were a little more lonely when they're isolated with their phones. And they were most lonely when they were isolated without their phones. But their threat responses seem to be the same level of elevated after both. And I think that's really interesting because that means that might mean that Social media, digital interactions could make you feel less lonely, but not necessarily reduce the downstream effects of being lonely, if that makes sense. Obviously is, you know, I'm, um, extrapolating from the data, and that would have to be kind of tested empirically, but I think it's interesting if you think about loneliness as kind of like a drive. Maybe you feel lonely because it makes you go out and socialize more. That maybe using these kinds of digital interactions could reduce that drive a bit, which might be bad, you know, if you don't, if you don't feel, it's like it's kind of like a, if you don't feel hungry, but you're starving. You don't eat, and then you don't get nutrients, right? So it's kind of like, that's kind of like the metaphor that I like to think about, yeah.

17:58 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, no, but it's interesting, but uh, I, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that perhaps there are er instances, contexts, circumstances where, uh, I mean, of course it depends on how people use uh social media and the internet more generally, and where, what they do with when they meet new people online because they can use that as a platform to then go and meet them. In real life, right, and then there's also the cases of people who live, for example, in very isolated regions where perhaps there aren't many people around them to meet in person and perhaps through the internet it's easier for them to connect with others and again that may lead eventually to offline interactions and also maybe there are. SITUATIONS where people because they have particular kinds of niche interests or uh they have particular uh personality traits or even social identities, I don't know, maybe LGBTQ people, it, um, it's easier for them to meet people like them in certain spaces online and then, Uh, I'm not sure if that would necessarily fulfill their social needs, but I mean, I imagine that potentially that would make them feel less isolated. I mean, does it, does it, does this make sense, or?

19:36 Emily Towner: Yeah, totally, and that is kind of what we see from the, the studies that ask people about. How connected they feel and, and the studies that look at their kind of more naturalistic use of these platforms. And actually, yeah, we did a systematic review about, like, self-disclosure online in kind of younger adolescents. And we actually did find too that younger adolescents might use these online spaces as a way to kind of, like, practice as well, social. Interactions that they might be like a little too nervous to do in person, you know, at first, or like practice self-disclosure in a way that feels like a little less um scary. It does feel a little safer, right, when you're like typing behind a keyboard than when you're saying something to someone in person. Um, BUT I think it's just the idea that hopefully that also translates into making real world connections, which I think is where the threat component is interesting because sometimes when there's a way to do things that's more comfortable, it doesn't force you to go out and face your fears in a way that is maybe better in the long term, you know, you're like, if you, if you can get all your social interaction and you don't have to be nervous online. That could maybe make young people less likely to take a chance and go out and actually like. Develop those skills like in person, but I don't know, I think there is like a trade off though, because, yeah, I can see how it can be helpful as well. I think it's just like, It's that like tipping point, maybe that tip, maybe that tipping point from where it becomes a maladaptive anxiety, you know, versus just a normal kind of like. Normal like nervousness, you know.

21:18 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, and I guess it also depends, and you alluded to that earlier, it depends on how people use the internet, social media specifically, because you can just go on YouTube and just be watching videos and not even talking to. Anyone on the internet, not even via text, but, but then if you're doing text, at least you're already interacting with someone, and then if you go and move to uh talking over call using your voice and hearing the other person on the other hand. Uh, I mean, that's, uh, a step further, and then if you talk through video, I imagine that's even better, and then if that leads to, um, offline social interactions. I mean, what I'm trying to say here is that probably it also depends on the kinds of interactions, the way that people interact. Uh, WITH each other online and the level, the level of, um, information, uh, audio visual information that they share, I guess.

22:31 Emily Towner: Yeah, and I think this is a really important, like area for future research too, because, as I was kind of saying before, a lot of the research is really just like self-report and correlational, and I think We need a lot more experimental research to kind of, like, look at these components in a controlled way, you know, so, like, like, yeah, like you said, like, is, is video better than it feels better than texting, right, or calling. It feels that there should be, like, these, like, steps, right, up of, like, how socially and, like, connected you feel to someone, but I'm really interested too in, like, what creates those feelings of social connection. And why, you know, like why is Video better than, I mean, presumably it's something to do with the body language and the visuals, but that's less than get in person even, you know, and there's something about being in the same environment that also like, feels like that facilitates that. So I think, yeah, I think to to understand this further, we really need to understand social connection in general in humans and like what makes something feel socially connecting, and what are the features of that that are kind of like removed. When you're interacting virtually or digitally, yeah.

23:42 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. So a minute ago you were talking a little bit about self-disclosure. Tell us more about that. I mean, what is self-disclosure and how does it work, particularly in online environments?

23:57 Emily Towner: Yeah, I mean, I think selfish, I'm not a super expert on self-disclosure, but I think that's just anytime you're kind of talking and giving kind of reciprocal information about yourself, sharing things and like, that go a little bit more in depth, um. I think people often do share things online for the first time that they might not share in person as well. I think this is, this is kind of what we found in our some of our earlier research where we were doing a reviewing the literature and seeing what people had found, um. Yeah, I just thought of a totally separate topic, but I'm not gonna, I, I was gonna talk a little bit about like what I'm, what I'm researching now, but I think it's not, it's not,

24:39 Ricardo Lopes: well, you can tell us about that, uh, at the end. I mean, if you want.

24:47 Emily Towner: Or

24:47 Ricardo Lopes: if you, or if it's, or if it's relevant to this topic, you can mention it now so.

24:52 Emily Towner: Well, OK, I'll mention it only because, yeah, so, uh, so with, as you probably have realized now with like AI, right, this is kind of the new thing, right? Like AI is, everyone's interested in AI and I'm interested in whether, like, we can connect with AI or not, because a lot of people are using it, right? A lot of people are disclosed, that's why I thought of it. A lot of people are self-disclosing to AI, right? Like having very kind of personal chats with it. Talking about their problems, talking about their day. People are even, like, in relationships with these bots and you've, I've read some things, you know, about this, um, which seems very dystopian, but um Yeah, so I'm, I'm, my, my latest project that we just finished collecting data for is looking at um, Social connection with AI, whether we can actually feel connected to AI. And one of the ways that we kind of tried to manipulate that was through these various conversation topics that we wove into the chatbots, and the ones where we wanted them to feel more connected to, we had these kind of increasing questions that were kind of more self-disclosing as you went. So, it kind of started. With a little more shallow of a topic. It's actually like a really um old protocol that was used in human research. It's called like the Fast Friends protocol. You might have heard of it. It's kind of a famous study from like the 90s, I think, um where they gave people like some conversation topics. They basically tried to get people to connect with each other. And how to do that. So they um had like some small talk, small talk topics, and then they had these like fast friends topics, and the fast friends topics were like, started shallower and then increasingly developed more kind of self-disclosure, more intimacy, more connection. So we integrated those into this chatbot to try to develop, like, an increasing level of social connection through this kind of reciprocal self-disclosure and Um, warmth and responsiveness and some other things, um, yeah, to try to see if people can connect with AI or not, or if it's different, um, which I think is interesting as we It's like almost a An extension of the digital interactions, but In some ways more realistic and in some ways less, like, it's more um It's more, it's less passive, you know, as I was saying earlier, there's like this active and passive digital media use. So, like, chatting with an AI is less passive because you're really engaged with it, right? Like, it's responding, you're responding, but it's also like less realistic in a lot of ways because there's no human at all, right, in the In the conversation. So, um, you know, in some ways, maybe that's less realistic than scrolling on social media, because at least on social media, it's other humans, or it was before AI, who knows now, maybe it's all AI.

27:57 Ricardo Lopes: And are you going to study whether that has any sort of impact on people's sense of isolation or not?

28:09 Emily Towner: Yeah, so we're interested in like whether people feel, firstly, whether we can kind of manipulate like how lonely people feel. Um, BASED on these interactions. And then we have, yeah, some other questions. So, we did this all while we were doing, um, functional brain imaging. So, we're interested if we can actually predict kind of their state, their, like, resting state after they've had these conversations, based on, um, kind of how connected they felt, how lonely they felt, how much social craving they had, so they're, like, state of social need, um. From their brain imaging data, basically. And then we're also interested in whether that then affects two other. Well, a few other types of social cognition. So, one being, um, self other kind of overlap. So we want to look at the neural representation of the self and another, and then see if that actually gets closer, the more connected they feel to someone, um, because each chatbot was represented by a little avatar. And then we're also interested in, um, Adaptive mentalization, so that's, they're they're basically playing a game against two of these chatbots, and um we're looking to see whether they're kind of strategic. Play of this game is different depending on how connected they felt to the agent. And then the final kind of question for this project is whether um people are more influenced by chatbots that they felt more connected to. So, we have them write a bunch of, like, artwork, and then they see um A rating from uh two of the actually I think it's more than 2. Yeah, no, it's the, it's all the chatbots that they um chatted with, and then they rate it again, so we're seeing, like, does their opinion of these different artworks change depending on how connected they felt to the agents. So it's like a measure of social influence in a way.

30:11 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, great. So, uh, I mean, I guess I will have to have you back on the show when you finish that project to talk about it.

30:19 Emily Towner: Yeah, we just finished the data collection, so that's exciting, and now we're gonna be analyzing it soon.

30:25 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, great. Um, SO moving on to another topic, of course, uh, uh, since the pandemic, people have been, uh, talking about and asking where at what extent it might, it might have affected, uh, social interaction among, uh, children, emerging adults and, and people like that. So, do we know if it did really have an impact, particularly among emerging adults?

30:54 Emily Towner: Yeah, it's really hard to study these types of things because you need really long term data, really, to see the impact. So, I don't think we know exactly yet how it impacted young people, but I think it probably undoubtedly did impact young people and probably differently depending what developmental stage they were at. So, You know, there's this idea of, like, these different kind of, like, sensitive periods of development where certain things are developing, and those things are more important, you know, during this specific time, like, there's the idea that um second language learning is really ideal before the age of, like, 12. So, if you learn a second language before 12, you're, like, pretty fluent, really no accent. If you learn it after 12, like, it's still possible, but you're probably gonna have some residual kind of, like, accent a little bit. Um You know, there's some individual variation there too, but um, So there's this kind of idea that there's sensitive periods for different things, and it might really depend what age they were. So, like, if they were very young, maybe it had some kind of impact on their actual, like, perception of emotions, you know, and faces, maybe, if everyone was wearing a mask and they weren't seeing a lot of other faces, you know, maybe that had some effect on that. Whereas, like, if you're an adolescent, and we know that adolescents are very like, Wanting to hang out with their friends and like explore their peer groups and be independent, and if they couldn't do any of that because they were kind of isolated and made to stay home, um, that could have downstream effects then on like how Maybe how long it takes them to become independent, you know, it could just be delayed. Maybe they just, maybe they do the independence later, you know, in their 20s instead of in their teens, um, but it's really hard to say, especially so early, it's only, yeah, it's only been 6 years since the pandemic. Um. So, yeah, I think, I think it's gonna, it we're gonna, it's probably gonna play out in very long term studies, but then those are also hard because then it's hard to disentangle. Why things happen, because humans are complicated. There's so many other things going on in the world at the same time as the pandemic, you know, um, that could be attributed to mental health. This is one of the, the main things why people People see that mental health is declining or mental health problems are getting worse, and then they kind of um see that that correlates with when social media was kind of like, invented. And it's possible, it's possible that social media could be the reason, um, but it's really hard to say because there's so many other things happening too at that time point, you know, you have the economy and just the, the world changing and different. Cohorts being affected by things you might not even think of, like maybe nutrition or like something in the food, you know, it's all these things, so, um. It's really hard to say, but I think it probably undoubtedly does, did have an impact that we'll see going forward. I know anecdotally, but I know people always say this. People always say, oh, kids today, you know, kids today Yeah,

34:03 Ricardo Lopes: but, but, but that's something that older generations have always been saying ever since, uh, the, the ancient Greeks, I guess.

34:12 Emily Towner: Exactly, yeah, that's what, that's what my PhD supervisor always starts with the Socrates saying. Um, ABOUT these, these youths being irascible, um, and something else, uh, yeah, but anecdotally I have heard that. Um, COLLEGE students for the past few years entering college have been a little bit less like socially prepared than previous generations, like a little more like high schoolers, you know, in that regard, so maybe

34:40 Ricardo Lopes: it's just socially, so less socially prepared in what sense,

34:46 Emily Towner: like less independent, I guess, less um. This is totally anecdotally, so don't take this with too much credence, but like, yeah, less, less able to, to kind of take care of themselves, I guess, in a way, or make new friends, that kind of thing. Um, BUT that really could be just this, this youth kids today thing happening or you, or you always think that the previous kids were, you know. Really different.

35:14 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, uh, that's just how people seem to work, but I, I mean, but, uh, going just back to the bit where you talked about, of course, claims that people have been making or, um, causal relationships that they've trying to, they've been trying to establish between social media use and mental health outcomes. Of course, as you said, there are many possible confounding factors there and. I mean, as far as I understand it, because I've had conversations on the show with uh people who are experts in communication or social psychologists who studies or, or sociologists who study specifically this topic. And it seems that for the most part it's either inconclusive or if it has a negative effect, most studies show a very small negative effect, and there are aspects of people interacting via social media that can be positive like what we referred earlier, and then of course just for the past. Uh, 15 years or so, 1516 years because 2010 is usually the, the year that people uh go back to when, when they look at, uh, the pote the uh the potential start of. Uh, THE effects of social media on particularly young people, uh, I mean, there are other potential factors like, as you mentioned, the economy, and then, uh, I mean, particularly nowadays since people, more and more people live in big cities, it's. It's also because cities are have basically been organized around uh cars and, and streets for cars and all of that. It's uh harder for people to find places to interact and meet new people. I mean, there, there are several different factors that can be playing a role here and then. The causality can also be reversed, right? It can just be the case that perhaps people who are prone to, uh, mental illness are also the ones who have, who use social media more. So I, I mean, what, what is your take on all of that?

37:44 Emily Towner: Yeah, I mean, I think what I, I agree with what you said mostly, I think. One thing I, I do think is that science is always kind of inconclusive though, so like we always, if we go strictly by the science, it's always gonna be inconclusive forever, you know,

38:00 Ricardo Lopes: yeah,

38:00 Emily Towner: sure, so I think maybe the question is just wrong, like you said, like I think. You know, asking is social media bad for mental health is kind of like asking, like, is food bad for health? It's like, well, what kind of food and, like, what quantity of food? What, you know, what do you mean by that? So I think getting more into the details is where we're gonna have to go also because I don't, it's definitely not going away, you know, it's not like we're gonna just give up social media or give up technology because of all the benefits it brings as well. So, I think knowing What's in it, you know, is like the important thing, like, like just knowing what's in your food, you know, is important to take care of your health, like we need to know how to use it in a way that's going to be healthiest. And then maybe we can think about, cause some of these, like, you know, some of these social media bans they're doing for young people, um, I do get the impulse because it's like when you don't know how something is going to affect something, you kind of wanna just ban it until you know, but we'll never, I think we'll never really, like, if we ban it until we know for sure, we'll never. Do anything because we'll never know for sure. Um,

39:13 Ricardo Lopes: YEAH, but I'm, but I mean, that if people have have done the same with, I don't know, televisions 60 or 70 years ago, I mean, because there were also people worried about the effects of watching too much TV back then, so,

39:33 Emily Towner: you know. Yeah, one of my colleagues, um, Amy Orban, who you might know of, she wrote a really funny piece a few years ago now, about how there's always been these panics over technology and how like, I think it was like in the radio, when the radio came out, people were really concerned, you know, about like what the radio was doing.

39:51 Ricardo Lopes: I mean, it's, it's all kinds of things in the. 5th century it was women reading romance novels and then it was, there were also panics surrounding mirrors, panic surrounding teddy bears, panic surrounding Walkmans. I mean, everything you can think, you can think of, people have made moral panics around it, around it, so

40:13 Emily Towner: yeah, so I think it's, it's about. Yeah, getting more into the details, maybe not looking so much anymore at, like, these broad markers because there's so much that goes into your mental health, you know, like, everyone has so many other factors going on that goes into their mental health besides just using social media, so. I think we need more, like, experimental and kind of mechanistic, like work looking at these things instead of these kind of very broad general kind of claims, cause I just don't know that we'll get much out of them, um, much further than what we already have gotten, you know, which is pretty inconclusive. So yeah, I don't have a strong, like, I'm not strongly pro or against it. I think it surely must have some effects because we do spend so much of our time now on communicating digitally and communicating online. So surely it must, and our brains aren't really evolved for that, you know, there's so many interesting things about like, Also just the number of people we see every day now, like, cause if you're on Instagram and you're scrolling or something and like, that's so many more faces than a human brain would ever have expected to see, like, in a normal day. So I, yeah, I think there's like so many interesting things about How we can adapt it to, like, fit our, how we can adapt all this, like, modern technology to fit our, like, ancient brains. In a way that's gonna be, like, healthy for us.

41:44 Ricardo Lopes: No, yeah, I, I mean one of the things that that I really find the weirdest is younger people not liking to even er make calls, because I really like to talk with people er hearing their voices, but there are some people out there that they're like, oh no, no, no, I don't want to do any of that, I just want to talk. Through text and uh I mean text is, for me personally, it's boring and then it's also prone to more because you don't hear the other person's intonations and all of that, it's also more prone to misunderstandings and stuff like that.

42:26 Emily Towner: Yeah, yeah, which it would be a really interesting topic too to study is like how people can't communicate very well on text cause you don't have any of the context, um. But yeah, I think that's interesting though. I mean, I, I also hated calling people when I was young, but that's cause I was nervous. So now I don't mind it at all, and I much prefer it, you know, so it's like also like the idea that maybe we need to practice these things or like put more emphasis on them as like, a thing that's actually important to learn how to do, instead of just like, expecting that people will do it. Oh, this was a really, OK, so in my study, you know what I found, which I found really fascinating, it's completely, maybe trivial, but Um, in my study now, we had people typing. So they were, they were talking to the chatbots in the MRI scanner, right? So they had to be like lying down in the MRI scanner with this MRI safe keyboard. And so we really screened um for that you could touch type, you know, and that you didn't have to look at the keyboard because your head is in the scanner, so you can't really look at the keys. And uh we're doing 18 to 25 year olds because I still wanted to focus on younger people. And there is a huge lack of touch typing ability in 18 to 25 year olds, which I really, really shocked me because we learned how to type in school, you know, like, we had classes where we really learned how to type, and I looked it up and apparently in 2002, which is like maybe probably when I was learning how to type in school, It was like 50% of schools in the US had regular typing lesson classes, and then in 2019, it was only 2% or something like that, because With all the digital natives and growing up with technology, people just presumed that they would pick it up. You know, it's like. OK, but then they won't because it's like not a, a natural thing that you just, you have to practice, you know, you have to actually learn and practice how to, how to touch type because It's, it's very low, the, the proportion of people who can really touch type, and I thought that was not gonna be a problem at all, you know, because I didn't think that was a problem, um. So I think it's kind of like that, you know, it's like these things that maybe we take for granted as adults. We need to think like, wait, is, is making a phone call really just a skill you should have, or would you not have had that if you didn't learn and practice it either, you know, and so it's like, Maybe we should probably put that, put typing classes back in school.

45:04 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, I, I don't know. I, I don't really like to do that. Oh, the young, the young people now they, they, I don't like to do those kinds of things because I know that people are always wrong about that.

45:19 Emily Towner: I was really, I didn't think it was, I didn't even think about it. I thought, yeah, everyone knows how to type. Yeah, yeah,

45:26 Ricardo Lopes: but, but, but I mean, I, I, I also, I also remember the era before the internet. I'm, I mean, I've had the internet since I was 9, so I was sort of an early adopter, but I remember how things were like before the internet, and it was just, I, I mean, people uh back then wouldn't even think, I mean, if they want to. To talk to a friend or something, they would just ring them, and I mean, people picking up the phone and talking to someone even for a straight hour or two was just normal. So

45:59 Emily Towner: yeah. Also talking to people's parents, I remember, you know, you'd have to call their house and you'd have to ask for them, you know, and you'd have to have your like, your grown-up voice on, you'd have to be like, hi, Mrs. SO and so, can I talk to so and so? And now I think that would terrify, I would that would terrify people. Yeah,

46:18 Ricardo Lopes: no, that, that, that, that's funny. So what are you looking forward to the most in your post talk? I mean, what are perhaps the questions you would like to see an answer to when it comes to. Uh, ADOLESCENCE, the effects of social isolation and perhaps, uh, the extent to which virtual interactions can, uh, fulfill some of their social needs and uh other questions related to that.

46:49 Emily Towner: Mhm, YEAH, that last one is like my main goal for my postdoc, just looking more into. Can these new forms of interaction fulfill our social needs, and what does that look like? What does that mean? How would we measure that as well is something I think that's important because self-report is great, but You know, in my PhD study, we found quite a disconnect between How lonely they reported feeling and then their threat and learning. So that makes me think that we need some kind of like, some different measures to to assess like how How something is, how adequately something is fulfilling one's social needs, and then I think once we kind of can understand that more. Like, what makes someone feel socially connected or how do you measure it? Then we can ask all kinds of cool questions about, like, what different types of technology or what types of social interactions might do that. So, yeah, I think maybe trying to kind of look more into the, I'm excited about trying to to quantify that in a way that could help us study a lot of different social questions in the future.

48:03 Ricardo Lopes: And do you think that could connect in some way to this broader discussion of whether social media might have uh some sort of mental health impact on particularly young people?

48:22 Emily Towner: Yeah, I think so because we know that social connection is so important for your mental health, like, regardless of what disorder or what specific. Thing you're talking about, like, that's one finding that is just super clear is that feeling alone, being alone. Being isolated, being lonely, those things are really associated with poor mental health. And young people like paradoxically report some of the highest levels of feeling lonely. Even though they're kind of some of the people who are around the most people, so I think being able to like, Reduce loneliness or isolation and young people would inevitably kind of improve mental health overall. Um Yeah,

49:15 Ricardo Lopes: Um, I mean, which actually just to comment that maybe because we know that, uh, social isolation or a lack of social interaction, uh, affects not only mental health but also physical health, for example, cardiovascular health. I mean, it would be interesting to see. Uh, I mean, of course it would be very tragic, but it would be interesting to see whether these younger generations who are reporting having fewer friends or even no close friends at all, uh, if, uh, that. Would make them develop cardiovascular issues earlier in their lives than the older, the older generations or even other kinds of um physical health effects that that could have in the long term,

50:08 Emily Towner: right, yeah, yeah.

50:11 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, OK, so great, look, as I said, uh, uh, it would be great to have you back on the show once you've, uh, concluded your post-doc project. I mean, uh, there's many, I imagine that there will be many interesting things to explore related to that. So, uh, where can people find your work on the internet?

50:33 Emily Towner: Yeah, just my website, um, Emily Towner.com. I think there are links to everything there, um, for following me on different platforms and my work and publications, and yeah.

50:47 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, great. I will be leaving a link to that and thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. It's been fun to talk with you. Yeah, thank you so much. Hi guys, thank you for watching this interview until the end. If you liked it, please share it, leave a like and hit the subscription button. The show is brought to you by Enlights Learning and Development done differently. Check their website at enlights.com and also please consider supporting the show on Patreon or PayPal. I would also like to give a huge thank you to my main patrons and PayPal supporters, Perergo Larsson, Jerry Muller, Frederick Sundo, Bernard Seyaz Olaf, Alex, Adam Cassel, Matthew Whittingberrd, Arnaud Wolff, Tim Hollis, Eric Elena, John Connors, Philip Forst Connolly. Then Dmitri Robert Windegerru Inai Zu Mark Nevs, Colin Holbrookfield, Governor, Michel Stormir, Samuel Andrea, Francis Forti Agnun, Svergoo, and Hal Herzognun, Machael Jonathan Labran, John Yardston, and Samuel Curric Hines, Mark Smith, John Ware, Tom Hammel, Sardusran, David Sloan Wilson, Yasilla Dezaraujo Romain Roach, Diego Londono Correa. Yannik Punteran Ruzmani, Charlotte Blis Nicole Barbaro, Adam Hunt, Pavlostazevski, Alekbaka Madison, Gary G. Alman, Semov, Zal Adrian Yei Poltonin, John Barboza, Julian Price, Edward Hall, Edin Bronner, Douglas Fry, Franco Bartolati, Gabriel Pancortez or Suliliski, Scott Zachary Fish, Tim Duffy, Sony Smith, and Wisman. Daniel Friedman, William Buckner, Paul Georg Jarno, Luke Lovai, Georgios Theophannus, Chris Williamson, Peter Wolozin, David Williams, Dio Costa, Anton Ericsson, Charles Murray, Alex Shaw, Marie Martinez, Coralli Chevalier, Bangalore atheists, Larry D. Lee Junior. Old Eringbon. Esterri, Michael Bailey, then Spurber, Robert Grassy, Zigoren, Jeff McMahon, Jake Zul, Barnabas Raddix, Mark Kempel, Thomas Dovner, Luke Neeson, Chris Story, Kimberly Johnson, Benjamin Galbert, Jessica Nowicki, Linda Brendan, Nicholas Carlson, Ismael Bensleyman. George Ekoriati, Valentine Steinmann, Per Crawley, Kate Van Goler, Alexander Obert, Liam Dunaway, BR, Massoud Ali Mohammadi, Perpendicular, Jannaertner, Ursula Guinov, Gregory Hastings, David Pinsov, Sean Nelson, Mike Levin, and Jos Necht. A special thanks to my producers is are Webb, Jim Frank Lucas Stink, Tom Vanneden, Bernardine Curtis Dixon, Benedict Mueller, Thomas Trumbull, Catherine and Patrick Tobin, John Carlomon Negro, Al Nick Cortiz and Nick Golden, and to my executive producers, Matthew Lavender, Sergio Quadrian, Bogdan Kanis, and Rosie. Thank you for all.