#1305 Vanniall: Trans Women in the Sex Industry

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Richard Lops, and today I'm here for another episode of my series Humanizing Sex Workers, and I'm here with Vanny Hall. She's an award winning trans adult content creator, entertainer, and sex worker, and she's also the host of Sex Tales, together with Melissa Stratton. And so we're going to talk about trans women in the sex industry today and some misconceptions that people might have about them. So Benel, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to everyone.

00:38 Vanniall: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me on, Ricardo.

00:43 Ricardo Lopes: No, sure, it's a pleasure. So, uh, before we get into trans women in sex work or the sex industry, tell us a little bit about your story, your personal story. I mean, because I'm interested, I, I've talked on the show. With, uh, sees women mostly with in this series that you're the first trans trans woman, so I'm interested in, uh, understanding, uh, first of all what it is like to, um, be a trans woman and also what it is like to be a trans woman in the sex industry. So what got you into pornography?

01:25 Vanniall: Um, I've always been like a porn consumer. Uh, BEFORE I was transitioning, I was a person that enjoyed porn, um, um, but I never felt like I would see myself in porn. And as I transitioned, I saw even less of people that looked like me, um, especially in the early, early years, you know, I was very flat-chested, um, and You know, there just wasn't a lot of like non-giant tittied women in porn when I was younger. And I remember when I turned 18, I was very excited to start streaming and to start getting into um a sexy mode of myself because I remember not seeing people like me before and I knew that there was a market for it if I was looking for it at one point. Then there has to be other people that were looking for it as well. So I decided to sort of like put what I wanted to see in the world a little bit and, and, and be uh the porn girl that I wanted to, to, to see. Um, SO yeah, um, I started transitioning when I was like early like 16, uh, like transitioning, uh, but really, um, really conservative, um, state and conservative, uh, household. Um, MY mother is a Southern Baptist preacher, so, um, I was very like little bits, tiny little bits here and there, mascara, foundation, things like that, and it just kind of built up over the time, um, but I

03:01 Ricardo Lopes: really, so was it particularly hard in that kind of environment?

03:06 Vanniall: It was hard, but I do think that I'm a particular type of person that like doesn't really like ingest what people tell me, um, especially if they like have some perceived authority. I just like it just bounces off of me. I don't, um, don't do what people tell me to do, and I especially don't, and I especially do like the, the complete opposite sometimes, um, so I've just always been that person and I've always been super hyper feminine, um, like from the jump. And I think it was just one of those things that like, everybody knew that if it just like, if it was left, left to their own devices, that it's what would happen and yeah, it just happened.

03:46 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, SO back when you got into the porn industry, the visibility of trans women in sport was not that, uh, great yet, if I understand it correctly, right?

03:57 Vanniall: Um, I, I suppose so. Um, I have to be honest with you, I'm not. I didn't, I'm not like a sports person. I've never, the only time I've picked up a ball is when someone threw it at my head, so I threw it back at their head. Um, THAT'S that's the only like real dabbling in sports that I have ever had. Um, I didn't really like, it didn't come into my sphere until like 2 or 3 years ago, um, when the whole trans debate started kicking off. Um, BUT to be quite honest, I'd never had any. Interest in sports or like um like I didn't like watching them either. I found them boring, so I was pretty shocked with the whole trans debate, uh, trans sports debate because I, I didn't know any trans people who were in sports. I didn't even really know any trans people who were like watching sports, so I've always been like a little on the outside of that debate, um, and just sort of like. Truthfully kind of just confused as to what everybody is so in arms about, so

05:01 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, but, but in the porn industry specifically, I mean, do you see that over the years it's become easier or people have become more accepting of trans performers or not?

05:14 Vanniall: Um, I, like I said, I don't actually like do temperature checks and like make sure people like me, um, before I do things, um, but I do think that trans people have become more visible in the last couple of years, um, on like the mainstream stage, um. I I, I, I don't know. I don't get any more. I mean, I, I still get the same amount of You know, dick that I did before. Again, there's been not like a giant increase and there has been a giant decrease in the type of guys and the guys that are into me. Um, IT'S I I find that the whole debate to be like unfocused, um, and confusing, um, from the outside looking in, it just kind of feels like people um have this, these perceived uh preferences and they're just kind of like Letting them govern how they want to, you know, tackle sports and bathrooms and everything. Um, AND I think that people for the most part haven't really let that affect what they ingest sexually, what they ingest in their you know own private time. Um, AND yeah, I can't say that like The money is any worse or any better. Um, IT still feels, but it definitely does feel consistent. It doesn't feel like no one's stopping their ingesting of trans porn, and no one has stopped calling me or texting me. So you know. Yeah, but,

06:58 Ricardo Lopes: but, uh, but when, when it comes to when you came into the porn industry, do you have any idea as to whether, uh, trans performers, particularly trans women, have more obstacles to overcome when coming into the sex industry than cis performers, or is that something that we, you didn't really experience?

07:23 Vanniall: Oh yeah, 100%. I think that. Trans bodies are just seen as like less profitable just in general. Um, I think that there's been a default to straight content for a very long time in the industry. Um, MOST tube sites that you go to will default to straight, white, like able bodies that are Aren't too chubby, aren't too skinny. Like, it's been a very much of the same thing for a very long time. Um, AND I knew going into the industry that I would have that barrier, um, and that ceiling really, that I couldn't really compete with a cis girl because I don't know if this is like a secret or anything, but cis woman can film like 56, scenes a day, um, uh, and I cannot, I can see, I can do like 1, maybe 2 if it's like a really, really tough day, and that week I can do maybe, maybe 3, but most trans girls that I know in the industry kind of do 1 a month, um. Because we don't have the same, you know, we don't have the same plumbing and the same things aren't expected of us that are expected of cis women. Um, WHEN you are on hormones, hormone replacement therapy, the, uh, Can I say penis?

08:43 Ricardo Lopes: Yes, you can use that word. Yes,

08:45 Vanniall: the, the, the penis, uh, is not as able anymore. It becomes less and less able the longer that you take hormones. Um, SO when you're expected to, um, come on demand and like be hard on demand, that is not an easy thing for a trans person. Um, THAT is actually like pretty. Borderline like impossible for most, um, and it's really like a skill and like a muscle that trans performers have to flex in order to do these things. But again, we cannot do them at the same rate. Um, SO there just will not be the same amount of scenes. There just won't be the same amount of girls. Um, THERE'S just like, it's such a small pool already, you know, um, and I think that it's, it has just Its own challenges and everybody, especially um in different areas have their own challenges. I know that being in New York City was like a major like Flaw, um, that director saw for me because most trans girls are either in Vegas or LA, um, and if you weren't like right down the street where they can get you, then they just weren't about to call you. Um, SO I think that if I were a cis, uh, female, I would have an easier time in the industry, but it's still, it's still a grind, you know, it's still one of those things that like you have to work for. And you have to continuously work for, um, you know, no matter what your body type is.

10:16 Ricardo Lopes: So, and when it comes to the people you perform with, uh, I'm asking you this because I, I know nothing about these aspects specifically and when it comes to the porn industry, but is there any sort of stigma attached to, for example, male performers who do scenes with trans women in the sense that they tend to be, to do exclusively scenes with trans women. AND not, not with cis women because they are sort of looked down upon because they perform with trans women, or is there something like that

10:54 Vanniall: there? Yeah, definitely there's like a look down stigmatized upon it, but also the amount of guys that will perform with trans women are a smaller pool in the first place. So when a trans studio does find male talent that likes shooting with trans women. They do actually pay them more than um they would get paid if they just were doing straight content um so it's like a little bit of like a double, a double edged sword a little bit because you get to, um, you know, you get to perform and you get to have a steady paycheck, but you You have the knowledge that if you were to go into the mainstream, you would be seen as less than, and you just simply would not get paid as much and you don't get paid as much, not because you filmed with trans people, but just because you're male talent. They just don't value male talent in the same way and there's just so, so many. And I'm going to be honest, straight dudes that are willing to bang straight chicks, um, you can find them, you know, down the road. So when there is a guy that does perform with trans people and is able to perform, trans studios really hold onto them for dear life.

12:09 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but I mean, does it have anything to do with the fact that the cis women performers also don't really like to perform with those male performers because they have sex with trans women? I mean, I mean, is there anything like that in the industry? She'd

12:29 Vanniall: be

12:30 Ricardo Lopes: told

12:30 Vanniall: I've never been confronted. With that, no one, no, uh, uh, performer in the industry has ever told me that directly, that they have those issues. They have told me that their agents have those issues, that their managers have those issues, because they are thinking in this way of this giant web of like what you can do and what you can't do to get however much money, like your first anal scene has to be, you know, like your 8th scene in order to get this much money type of thing. And I think that They see it as like the value of their performer depreciating if they, you know, um, perform with someone that has performed with someone that is considered less than, um, but I do think that that is something that's like an industry thing, um, especially since the industry does not see trans bodies as profitable. They just, and even gay bodies, um, they just, uh, You know, they, they, they impose these sorts of, uh, rules and restrictions that um Most cis girls are, are, aren't just going to like go break. Uh, THAT'S just they're not just going to go because there's no real reason to, like there's no real, like if you're getting paid well and like their only stipulation is you can't work with trans people, then, you know, I, I, I can't necessarily fault them for that. But I, I mean, I'm sure that there are people that have these biases, but I've never been confronted with it, um, and I've also never really like Um, Felt a need, you know, to work with those people. Um, IT'S really not going to be a good scene if you're not into it. It's really not going to be a good scene if you're like feeling like, you know, your manager is going to be upset at you for doing it. I really, I, I don't care. I do not care. Um, AND if it's not going to be a good scene, then, you know, you should go do something, something else, I think. I don't know.

14:26 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm, YEAH, uh, but I mean, do you feel like, uh, trans women in the porn industry is something that is a positive form of visibility, even more particularly so in the past few years where uh the consumption of. Trans porn has been going up and up, or do you think that there's perhaps an element of sexual fetishization there? Oh,

14:53 Vanniall: it's all sexual fetishization. My highest spenders are people who, when I go and find their personal Instagrams and personal Twitters. ARE filled with what I would be considered these sort of like alt right um thoughts, um, these thoughts that I would consider to be directly opposing to me as a person. And I've had really rough nights reconciling with that, um, reconciling with the idea of giving pleasure to people that don't see, um, a reason for me to exist in society. Like how does that really work? Um, BUT I do. You know, I do have the knowledge and can actually speak to people and realize that they As much as they have their preferences and the way that they feel about the world. They also Enjoy the type of content that they enjoy, and sometimes they don't even really have an answer as to why they like it, um, but they do, and then, and they can't really, you know, they, they can't really stop that. Um, SO that's really the only, like, um, the part of it that I really, uh, care about, um, is the, the, you know, If people are going to, you know, be searching up everything about me anyway, be digging up things on me and be trying to find out if I'm a terrible, awful person, then I do think that they should at least be paying a subscription price, um, and have to, to, to actually access me. They need to be, be, be, be lining my pockets, um, because I can't say that representation. IS an amazing thing. I can't say the representation has made people more accepting of trans people. Um, I can't say that seeing more trans people is making people more accepting. Um, BUT I also can't live my life for, you know, waiting for acceptance. Um, IF you can't accept me, then you're going to have that, that, that's not going to change the fact that you're going to have to pay me. I'm not going to stop living my life and stop doing the things that I want to do because you don't want to see me in this capacity anymore. It, I just can't do it.

17:18 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm, BUT you feel then that perhaps compared to cis women, there's more of a of an element of treating trans women as simply sex objects in the sex industry.

17:34 Vanniall: Oh, totally, but I, to be honest, I don't think it's different for cis women. I don't. I think that most, a lot of men see. Ciss women, especially cis porn actors as objects, um, and they talk about them as objects and they, they, they treat them as disposable when they do something wrong that they don't like. They, they, they think of all women in the same way. Um, I don't think it's different. I don't.

18:00 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, uh, so what do you think are perhaps the most common misconceptions that people have about, uh, trans performers, particularly trans women? I mean, when you, have you ever been confronted with people, uh, making this or that claim about, uh, trans women performers that you thought, oh, OK, this is just ridiculous.

18:25 Vanniall: God, um. Jeez, uh, ba ba ba. Well, I know, yeah, I know for a fact that people, um, in the industry just don't think that trans content is profitable and that trans bodies aren't profitable, and I've been profiting off of my own body for a very long time now, um, and I've been doing very well for myself off of just my body, off of a body that Half the time does not work um the way that it's supposed to, um, but when I can like set up a camera and I can make, um, make my body work in a certain way and I can upload that content and I can make money from it, then like I'm like I'm golden over here, um, but yeah. I feel like I completely forgot the question.

19:13 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, uh, uh, NO, it was about misconceptions, but, but then let, let me ask you about this, uh, let me ask you about this specifically because I think it's a misconception not only for applied to trans women in the sex industry, but trans women more generally. I mean, and, uh, people have this very common idea, uh, that, um, the gender identity in this case. For you it's a trans identity as something to do with uh sexuality that sometimes it's not so much that people identify as the opposite gender, it's just that they have this sort of sexual kink or something like that. I mean, is there any, is there any connection at all between gender identity and sexuality?

20:01 Vanniall: I mean, definitely, for sure, I think that there's probably something, but I do think that there exists two separate groups of of of queer people, let's just say. Um, I do think that trans women are different than people who dress up in women's clothing for sexual gratification. Um, I think that when a man or someone who perceives himself as a man puts on stockings and a skirt and a corset and a wig that they got from the dollar store, and they jack off in front of the mirror and then they you know go burn that stuff or throw it all in the trash, I think that that person is a very different person than someone who At the age of 1213, slowly started doing these things that people around them saw as feminization, but they themselves just saw as expression. They themselves were just trying to express. And I think that when people express femininity. It's looked down upon. It's especially people who are perceived as men, when they express femininity, it's seen as weakness. It's seen as, why would you want to accept weakness? And I think that that is a hard thing for people to reconcile with. Like why would you not be doing this for sexual gratification. Why would you not be doing this for a small moment in your bedroom alone in the dark? And that's because it's not, it's not just for me and it's not for anybody else as much as it's like for my soul. Like my soul wants to dress up in this way. Once these clothings that you were telling me are wrong, but I can't really stop myself from liking the things that I like and being the way that I am. Like I just don't think that's, you can't stop someone whose favorite color is green to say, Oh my God, I love that color. You can't, you can't. And like that's A different thing than someone who's Than someone who jacks off when they see the color green. Like it's, it's, they are two different things and I understand the fear of like, oh, these people are objectifying me further and kind of making fun of me further. But I, as a person who is not interested in women, who is not, who does not see women as sexual as that sexual of beings, I don't have those feelings. I don't think that I need Stockings and panties and a bra in order to feel sexy, in order in order to stack off in the nude since I was young, in the nude, I have felt very feminine. It's where I felt my most feminine and it's always been my most feminine, and that's that's why I started taking nudes of myself, because that's where I felt that I can express myself. The most, like in the most feminine way. And it's never been about the hair. It's never been about the makeup. It's never been about the clothes. Those things have come later. Those things have come societally. Um, YOU know, I wear certain things to the grocery store because people look at me weird if I don't, you know, I know what society expects of me, and I think that people, they get them really jumbled up of people who, you know, trying to exist in a society and trying to be seen as sexy. You know, maybe to to to their local crush and people who who find all of this to be a giant like thing worthy of jacking off for. That's just, that's not me.

23:39 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. So, uh, did you feel that uh after you transitioned and uh started presenting yourself even more feminine, do you think that, um, in, in what ways did you feel people treated you differently? If they treated you differently,

24:01 Vanniall: of course. It was kind of almost immediate, um, because like middle school, I was super hyper bullied, like physically bullied, um, like people chasing me and trying to, trying to hurt me, trying to like, I don't, I don't even know, just trying to, to tease and hurt and like call me out in the middle of lunch type things and like, As soon as high school hit and I made a decision to partake in the things that I feel are feminine and partake in the way that I want to behave in the world, the way that I changed, the way that I moved in the world did not change, but the way that people treated me changed immediately. And I don't think it was because the femininity, it was per se, but it was because Like the femininity was something that I was trying to hide for so long. It's something that everyone could see, but that I was trying to put this veil over and pretend wasn't there. And I think when I decided to put that femininity in front of me and decided to say, You know what? I do like the color pink. You know what? I do like frilly, I do like frilly things and just start incorporating that little and little, people just, they shut up, they stopped, and then they started hitting on me. Then I started getting catcalls in the in the hallway and like just like like guys that fully were bullying me three years ago, like, you know, without their buddies around and without anybody around, grabbing me at my waist and trying to like whisper shit into my ear and I'm like, bro, you, I thought you hated me. I thought this was like disgusting to you. And like, and you know anyway, um, I fully Had to accept myself in order for it to become my shield in order for it to become the thing that like makes me powerful instead of the thing that makes me weak, um, and that's definitely I've taken that to how I move in the world because I think, I, yeah, I know that if I presented differently, if I tried to hide this and try to present myself as a cis man, as a man that's, you know, I'm just a dude, I think I would have a hell of a lot more trouble in this world. I think that I would not be um probably even alive because of the trouble that I would have in this world. Um, AND I don't think that it's me being a trans woman that's made me, um, you know, hard to Hard to, you know, knock over. I think it's my acceptance that I myself may be a trans woman. Um, IT'S the acceptance that I myself am not some alpha male, um, that that gives me that power, I think.

26:43 Ricardo Lopes: But, but, but do you think that if you were a sales man, because as you said, you were always, uh, more feminine than the average man that you would have been into, into more trouble because, uh, people, I, I, I mean people would treat you as would have treated you as a weak man. Yeah, yeah,

27:05 Vanniall: they would have treated me as, as just like an extremely weak man that just can't be a man or something. Um, THEY could, they would, and I don't even, yeah, yeah, I think, especially because I was never into women, I was never, um, I was never like a a person that like chased skirts and like. I just, um There's no way that I would be able to, you know, survive in that world as, as a cis man, and um Yeah, yeah, I am. I was really depressed as a kid, especially when I was, you know, the really repressed times. I was a really, really sad and lonely individual, um, and I can't help but feel like it's because you know of the parts that I was denying to myself that I could not find friends or even family that I could relate to, um, that I could feel, you know, that I could be myself around even a little bit, you know.

28:08 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, do you feel that that's perhaps one of the reasons why some trans people decide to transition later in their lives, like in their 40s, their 50s, sometimes their 60s, because they know that there's a big risk that they will be rejected by most people around them.

28:30 Vanniall: Yeah, they are worried that they'll lose everyone around them that they've grown to love, that they've, that they have grown. Into this person around, um, because people are afraid of losing the people that they love. They are worried of them becoming just completely different people, um, and they, and to them like transience is the ultimate, you know, like change, um, and I think that's how I didn't realize how people saw it. I didn't because I didn't really change the person that I was on the inside. I just started allowing the parts of my outside to like show and um. Yeah, I think that most people just, um, don't allow themselves to feel that way until it starts getting a little quiet around like 40, 50 years old, until people, you know, stop coming around in the first place, maybe as much and, and you don't have as much pressures on yourself and not as many eyes on you as a 20 year old, then you start, you know, maybe thinking, you know, maybe, maybe I can explore myself in a different way. Um. And maybe I will. I have to lose people, um, but maybe that's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make.

29:41 Ricardo Lopes: But one thing that I heard when you were talking about how things changed after you transitioned and started presenting yourself socially as a woman is that you mentioned, for example, being more catcalled and people trying to grab you and things like that. So do you think that you having made that transition Also allowed for you to get a better understanding of perhaps what it is like to live as a seized woman in our societies and people uh uh because someone is a is a woman, people thinking that it's easier for them to take advantage of them or something like that.

30:25 Vanniall: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I, yeah, um, yeah, I. Yeah, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't long until, it wasn't long after that that I remember feeling that, um, I had to be careful, um, that I actually shouldn't wear too short of skirts, um, around everyone, um, that I actually shouldn't, um, be alone with a bunch of guys, um, sometimes, um, and that I actually shouldn't, you know, uh, be out on in, in like a club or in a bar or anyplace, you know, by myself, um, all the time, just because, um, there has been Um, there's been a time where I have been roofied, um, and, you know, realized before anything happened and, and, and went home, um, like this is after high school, but, um, there's been times where I've been grabbed, um, in the middle of the street, um, and only because my friend who's literally directly beside me, um, was there to help, was I able to like stop, um, the situation. I, I. Yeah, I think that there is definitely a vulnerability in being a woman. Um. ARE being seen as a woman, um, in society that is scary at times. Um. Yeah, that's kind of all I can really say about it, really. Mhm.

32:06 Ricardo Lopes: No, right, OK, so, uh, but since you are a trans woman, but you're also a sex worker, do you feel that there are ways in which sex workers' rights might intersect with trans rights?

32:23 Vanniall: Sure, for sure, I think like most like obscenity laws and like most um. Uh, LAWS against bodies in general, any sort of type of body or anybody, any part of the body being shown, um, I think directly impacts trans people, directly impacts queer people who just are seen as different. Um, AND the same goes for, for, for laws against against trans people. Um, I think when laws start saying things like a person cannot, a person who is seen as a man. Um, CANNOT, you know, enter the woman's bathroom, um, is a very short, it seems very short and sweet, and why would anyone have a problem about it, but you have to take into account that there are a lot of women, a lot of women who identify as women who have never identified as anything else, who just look like men, who have short hair, who have Faces that look like men. There are a lot of men. There are a lot of women that just so happen to kind of look like men, and they are fully women, and they identify themselves as women, as cis women, and You, there's no, there's not enough gray area to um. To justify, you know, um, Legislation on people's bodies. There just isn't. Um, AND we as sex workers have dealt with a lot of legislation on the showing of our bodies and on being sexy, making, you know, kind of like being sexy on the internet illegal, and we, um, We already like can't work really in these, you know, conditions. So I, I hope that people will like um Start seeing the fight against um Against transphobia as a fight against, you know, people being anti-sex work and also being anti-woman. Like I don't think that, I don't think that all women look one way. I don't. I don't think that all women have, you know, the same degree of testosterone in their body. And I don't think that because me as a person is looking to experiment and looking to, you know, be in the world. And not hurt anybody around me. I don't think that because I'm looking to do that, that means that every woman should be blood tested and like genital checked. That's Crazy, I think. I think that that's berserk. I think that the people that need to know what's in a person's pants, um, usually are the people that the person is dating and needs to have that conversation with. That is, that's the conversation needs to have between two people. I don't think it needs to be legislation, and I don't think it needs to be this giant debate on whether every woman. Needs to drop their pants and show or prove to you that they're a woman. I, I think that that's ridiculous.

35:30 Ricardo Lopes: No, I agree that's absolutely ridiculous, and I mean when it comes to the debate surrounding public bathrooms, I think that first of all, as you said, there are women out there, even if they are in the minority that are that have really masculine features, sees women, and, and so I mean what are you going to do? Are you going to assume that any woman who looks a little bit more masculine than you think a woman should look, can't enter women's bathrooms. And then when it comes to trans women specifically, I mean if they are forced to go into, if they are forced to go to men's bathrooms, I mean, aren't you also More easily target a target of harassment there because I'm a trans woman in the middle of a bunch of men. I don't think that's very safe.

36:26 Vanniall: No, it's not very safe, and it obviously shows that they either don't care or they are hoping that trans women get hurt, that these, that these people that they're, that they are still seeing as weak men. Um, YOU know, get, get, get roughed up a little bit, and I, I feel unsafe at times in the middle of New York City, in the middle of the street, and I cannot imagine at my age being the way that I am now, going into the middle of a men's restroom. Um, THAT sounds terrifying to me, absolutely horrifying. Um, I'd much rather hold it. I will hold it or I will pee in the bushes, but I will not be going in the men's bathroom. Yeah,

37:09 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, and when it comes to sex work, I have, I have also this sense from the conversations I've had with other people on the show and even um off camera that it also has a lot to do with uh people trying to policing or controlling women's sexuality more generally, right? I mean it's, it's basically. People trying to say, oh no, we, you as women, whether you are cis women or trans women, you should, you shouldn't be allowed to express yourself, yourself sexually in a free way or however you want, or at least in this specific way.

37:50 Vanniall: Facts, for sure, it's all about control or perceived control, and like I. I think that a lot of politicians and people that vote for these legislations and cheer on these legislations want that sense of control over women's bodies. They want to feel like they have control in this small part of this world. Like I, I don't think that you should kill babies. So therefore, nobody should be able to have an abortion. And that's That's the choice that I'm sticking to, and they want to like feel like a big man that's in control. And honestly, we can't continuously like have legislation and have a world that like, Puts that guy on a pedestal, that makes that guy like, you know, the guy to, oh, that's a good guy. No, that guy obviously has nefarious motives and isn't just thinking about protecting women when he's saying things that are anti-abortion and anti-woman.

38:51 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, which is funny because you also sometimes see feminists, not all feminists, of course, it tends to be the radical, the radical branch of feminism who are trans exclusionary but also sex worker exclusionary. So I mean even though they're women and most of them sees women at the same time they seem to place themselves on the side of patriarchy when it comes. To policing women, other women's sexuality and whatever other women have in their pants, I guess.

39:26 Vanniall: Oh yeah, no, they, and they place themselves on a pedestal, a hierarchical pedestal as well against these women who they see as less than because they allow men to do things to their body and they say things like, you're male-centered because you let a man pay to, to have sex with you. And I'm sorry, but there's nothing male-centered about like Deciding to feed your child in the way that you have. Um, AND I don't think that that's male-centered at all. I think that people have a very small scope of what they consider to be What they consider to be OK. And I think we smallen that scope more and more when we start putting things, like we start agreeing with them about ways that there are ways to be a woman and there are ways to be um a proper woman, because it just it just goes smaller and smaller and smaller, and they're like, Oh, actually, you're not, you're not a proper woman. You sell your body. And how can a woman do that? It's Buffoonery, complete buffoonery.

40:26 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, there's lots of moralization going around there, right? It's like, oh, I'm morally superior to you because I don't do these degenerate kind of sexual things, right,

40:38 Vanniall: right, and they completely negate that there's reason beyond someone's sexual pleasure that they're in sex work, like the terrible job market that we are currently in, and the terrible economy that like most people. Cannot survive off of one job in their city, in their state. Most states are still at 750 minimum, and that is not something that most people can survive one person on, let alone a child, another child. Like it's It's a hard world out there and you act like you don't understand why someone would need to do something that you would consider unsavory. Like. There's money, dude. People need money.

41:32 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, and I also think that there's lots of hypocrisy going around in society because for example, if you look at data coming from Pornhub, I mean, uh, Transportorn, people have been watching more and more Transport and. Equally so in the more conservative states. So it seems like it seems like the same guys who present themselves publicly as transphobic than in their private lives are watching trans girls on the internet.

42:08 Vanniall: So it's the same guy. It's the exact same freaking guy. I sometimes will go through my comments on Twitter and I'll look at reply guys and I'm like, let me see what you actually post. And the crazy replies and stuff that they're, they're like, oh my God, they like literally will comment, I love your big giant dick under my photo, and I'll go to their replies, and the next thing that they commented on the next person's post was that trans people should not be allowed outside in society. And I do have to admit that I don't think that they're like, um, I don't think that that's completely a Like I think that the reason that he holds this belief that trans women should not be able to go outside and not be able to exist in society is, is it because he is secretly not into trans people. It's because he's into trans people and he wants one like kind of captive, kind of not able to have any sort of choice, any sort of actual Um, other thing that they possibly could be doing other than being a pleasing object for him. He does not think that trans people shouldn't exist wholly. He thinks that trans people shouldn't exist in this way that he doesn't like. And that's the problem is that people think they can pick and choose how someone can exist, how groups of people can exist. And you know there's been people in this world that have thought that before, um, and we had worked for them. So.

43:40 Ricardo Lopes: Oh, that, that's really interesting. So do you think that perhaps there are some guys out there that they really like trans women but perhaps they do not feel really comfortable er seeing them on the street because I mean, they might look at them in a particular way that gives away the fact that they are attracted to them and they don't want other people to learn about it.

44:06 Vanniall: Exactly, yes, exactly, 100%. The amount of like, uh, like. Oh, I want to sex you up looks that I get from people, and then I'll get an immediate death glare from them after that because I'm watching them realize that they should not be publicly into me is crazy, berserk, absolutely fuck wild because like, dude, do you really care that much what a person thinks about you that you don't want to get your nut off? And also, why am I like Why am I in this? Like, I'm just a girl on the street at the end of the day. I don't actually, I'm not actually going to have sex with you, dude. Why are you having this whole internal battle about me? Mhm.

44:49 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's funny because at the same time that some of these guys again publicly have an opinion or present themselves against trans women and even against sex workers, they also think that sex workers are just women that are. 24/7, all the time sexually available, even to them, to them.

45:16 Vanniall: Yeah, they think that they think they find this to be objects. They're like, Oh, I want to pick this one off the shelf, and they don't care if they're like advocating for that shelf to be brought down and the whole fucking building to be brought down. They still want your ass on that fucking shelf when they want it. They're still going to be like, Wait, why, where are all the girls? Like they, and, and in these crazy conservative states, like, I was in um Minnesota, uh, like a couple of weeks ago, and the amount of people that came up to me in public, which I was shocked with. I was like, Whoa, wow, you chill like that. Y'all chill like that, but by themselves and stuff. But like still, the amount of people that came up to me. And this like what I would consider to be very conservative state, a place where I have seen like bathroom bans like on the, like, on the McDonald's, like, don't go in here if you type shit. And people are coming up to me and like asking for my autograph. And I'm like, wow, I don't know if like the repression is making it, like making people more excited to ingest it, or if this is just how it's how it goes. People who are interested in this content or who are interested in things that they don't feel like they should be interested in. Or just like, trying to pretend like they're not interested in it? Is that just the way that that life has been? Like, is that what people just do? It kind of just feels like it.

46:41 Ricardo Lopes: No, yeah, it's, it's funny. So let me ask you just to get into one last topic. Do you think that porn performers can play a role in things like sex education and educating people about sexual health, because, you know, usually people associate. Pornography with something that's dirty, but for example, I've had Nina Hartley on the show, and she's, apart from having been a sex worker, a porn performer, she's also a sex educator, and she has a series on sex education. She has a book on it. So do you think That porn performers, even though people tend to attach them to uh aspects of sex that are a little bit dirtier than than what we see regularly, that they can still play a role in that. Oh,

47:39 Vanniall: 100%, and I think that people, even if they are thinking that, um, That sex workers are, you know, dirtier and worse than them are like, um, they are excited to take that advice from, from sex workers who, who have good advice. Um, Lisa Ann has a Amazing voice and does amazing things in a sexual wellness. Um, AND she's in a sexual wellness, uh, world, and she does like lectures. Um, AND she is an amazing porn star, and she's, she's great. And I think that 100%, um, I think that we have a unique Um, view on the world and on sex. And I think that a lot of people don't, they, they live for better or worse, they don't really want to think about it. They don't want to like do the dirty, uh, research and the dirty, um, you know, on the ground reporting, um, that it sometimes takes to actually, you know, to, to talk about some things, um, to talk about the dirty, the dirty, gross stuff. Um, AND I think that, yeah, sex workers are uniquely Um, inept, uniquely able to, to, to give those views. Um, SO yeah, sex workers are the best sexual wellness coaches for sure.

48:58 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, OK, great. So, uh, would you like to let people know where they can find you and your stuff on the internet? Totally,

49:07 Vanniall: yeah, you can search Vanil on Google if you want, just V A N N I A L L, or you can search me on Instagram or Twitter under the name Vanil with three L's, that is V A N N I A L L L. And yeah, wherever else you get your porn, I'll be there.

49:24 Ricardo Lopes: OK, great. So look, it's been really fun to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

49:30 Vanniall: Oh, no problem at all. Thank you so much for having me.

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