#1299 Amy Baldwin: Shameless Sex

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Ricardo Lobs, and today I'm joined by Amy Baldwin. She's co-host of the Shameless Sex podcast. She's also a sex educator and sex and relationship coach, and she's the author together with April Lampert, who, by the way, is the other co-host of the Shameless Sex podcast of uh Shameless. Choose your own pleasure path to unlock the sex life you've been waiting for. So, Amy, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to everyone.

00:34 Amy Baldwin: Thank you. Yeah, that book title is um a mouthful. 11 of our criticisms is that if we were to write a second book or if we could redo it, we would not have such a longing a long-running title because we don't even remember it. It's a good job.

00:51 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, sure. So, look, I, I've been following your podcast for a while now, and, uh, particularly because I've also been doing this series on my own podcast, which I titled Humanizing Sex Workers, and just a couple of months ago you had Nina Hartley on the show. I thought, oh, OK, so now maybe it's the time to invite them on the show, so you're here with me today. Um. So let me ask you this, what do you think are some of the biggest obstacles in our societies when it comes to talking about sex? I mean, why do you think it is such a taboo topic, and how do you think we should approach sex in our societies?

01:39 Amy Baldwin: Yeah, um, so, well, I, I'm not an expert in, in religion, uh, in general, and I'd say that a lot of what we think and believe, uh, about the, the world in, in, in general, not just about sex, has to do with, um, with religious values, religious old religious scripture, and how it's been indoctrined and woven into culture, even if you're not a religious person, you don't even realize it. Um, I, I certainly don't. Uh, AND, uh, and so the idea is that, you know, sex is shameful, that it's not something that you're supposed to do until you're married, and it's only for procreation, you know, all the things that you may not actually believe, but still it still somehow affects you, um, and it affects the culture, and so obviously, if Having sex outside of marriage, you know, outside of something that is, um, just for having children, if that is something you're not supposed to do, or, or is, you know, if anything outside of that is taboo, then just talking about sex is going to be taboo as well. It's going to be hard. Most people are not trained, educated. Um, NOR is it modeled, you know, the conversations about, or, you know, the how-tos of how to talk about sex, uh, openly, lovingly, honestly, uh, it's like, I, you know, we generally didn't see our parents doing this, and, and also it's sex, right? So there's this idea that parents don't talk to their kids about sex, right? You don't, you know, or parents don't show their kids in some way, shape or. Form that they too are sexual beings and I'm not saying your parents have to have sex in front of you, but there's a lot of parents that will, you know, won't make out with each other in front of their children because it's too much, it's too graphic. Instead, I think that would be a really beautiful thing for young people to see like, oh, this is what deep connection, romance, passion, love can look like even in a marriage. So there's a lot of, uh, factors going, going on, uh, out and also, oh, porn, let's throw that one in there too. Um, PORN, it's a little bit backwards in that. Uh, PORN is clearly showing sex, but there's the stigma around watching porn. A lot of porn is too sensationalize, is created just for shock value or for very specific viewers. Um, IT'S not showing actual realistic sex. It's not showing the conversations, the negotiation. You know, boundaries, all the things that are really important for healthy, pleasurable sexual experiences with other people. Um, SO, yeah, it's a, it's a hard game. Like I, I, I, and I for sure am a wounded healer. I'm someone who got into this field, uh, the field of human sexuality at a younger age. I, I started working in this field, like, meaning, um, on the education path when I was 18, I'm 41 now, um, I, because I didn't understand any of this stuff, like I Had, I had only had an orgasm from a vibrator. I did, did not know how to openly talk about sex with partners. They certainly weren't doing that with me, and I was really curious, so I was like, well, if I'm going to go to school for 10 amount of years, I might as well go to school for something I genuinely want to learn about, and that was sexuality.

04:53 Ricardo Lopes: And why do you think that actually, since you mentioned partners, why do you think that people have so much difficulty open up even with their own romantic and or sexual partners about sex, about their preferences in bed, about even asking their partners what they what they prefer, what they might be doing wrong and things like that. I mean, why do people have so much difficulty having those kinds of conversations?

05:22 Amy Baldwin: Well, isn't it interesting when you think about people having sex, right? So if I have sex with my partner, my partner has a, has a penis, he's, he's a man with a penis. I have sex with him, um, so we say we have penetrative sex, and he's inside of me, which to me is a pretty invasive, intimate, vulnerable thing. So that, and so a lot of people when having sex or doing something like that. But then talking about sex is the thing that's the scary part, right? I mean, sure, sex itself is, can be scared, very scary for a lot of people and, and edgy and vulnerable, but it, but for a lot of people, it's actually the actual communication that is, is the trickier, scarier part, and I just think that's so interesting to consider. It's a little bit backwards, and I, and I sometimes I highlight this when I work with clients who are really scared to talk about sex. Like, do you ever look at your from this outside perspective, like this macro view and kind of laugh about this, not that you're like ha ha, funny, ridiculous, because you're not, you're not alone at all, but do you ever look at it like, wow, I'm, I'm comfortable having this person fuck me, but I can't talk to them about what I want in the bedroom. Um, AND that is, there's nothing wrong with you for that. That is just, again, You're not being taught how to do that, and, and even outside of sex, we're not being taught how to just talk to people in real deep, vulnerable, loving ways. We don't, we get, I don't know about you're in Portugal, right? I don't know about Portugal, but in the US, you know, in high school, In the public school system we take communications classes to be to learn to be public speakers for the most part, not to have loving everyday conversations with people about hard stuff that would be amazing if we had that, but then I probably wouldn't have a job. So, but you know, so again, like if you, if it wasn't modeled for you. By your primary caregivers, um, you probably grew up not having a ton of skills, unless you got really lucky where you got into a partnership or a friend circle with a bunch of people who were really open to talking about sex and beyond, you know, other things that we'll, we'll say are more like taboo or challenging conversations, or just vulnerable conversations.

07:35 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, and the interesting thing as well is in my first question, I mean, you were talking at a certain point about religious people because of their approach to sex, and I mean, of course I agree also that I don't know if most of it, but at least part of the reason why sex is a taboo in our societies has to do with religion and with conservative people and conservative approaches to sex, but I mean, uh, the other thing is that those people also many times have an issue with sex education at school, right? So I mean, if people were to not get any sex education at School, if they are not supposed to talk with their parents at home about it and if they are not educated or trained to have this kind of deep conversations with their partners about sex, I mean, what can people do? I mean, is the only option available learning through porn then, or I mean what can people do?

08:44 Amy Baldwin: Seriously, yeah, well, seriously, and when you, when you look at it from that perspective. Right, it, it kind of seems like, you know, if we're not supposed to do these things, we're not having the conversations, then it, it really, it to me it looks like, OK, so sex really is about just like making babies or like some sort of like, you know, maintenance patriarch archical, what whatever that word is a little hard for me, but the patriarchy, you know what I mean, um, so we look at it from that perspective, right, and, and, but, but. That's bullshit because a lot of most people experience or are looking for pleasure in sex, and sex is a really great way to experience pleasure and connection. It's a profound way. It's, it's a life-changing way that can lead to more aliveness in your body, to more of a feeling, a sense of feeling at home of um Of belonging, it's really powerful. So yeah, so when you don't have those things, you don't have it in school, you don't have it with your parents, right? You're, you'd have, you talk to the, you know, your kids on the, on the playground. I remember the first time I heard about blowjobs when I was in 6th grade or something. I had no idea what it was, right? And then like some boy made a joke about blowjobs and I was like. What is that? And no one had taught me, so naturally I'm thinking you're blowing, like you're actually like blowing some air out of your mouth, and no, I didn't go and do that later, everyone. I heard more through the peer group, through the grapevine, and I did discover porn. Um, THIS was, I'm 41. This is when the internet uses like the AOL days, so I'm on my parents' computer Googling like big dick and like huge tits, and I, but I'm like 13 or something, maybe I'm 12, and I didn't realize that it saves your search history. So my parents came to me and they're like, um, Amy, were you on the computer because there's all these searches, and I instantly lied out because I felt shame. I was like, and my parents were chill. I was not raised raised in an environment with a lot of shame around sex. It wasn't religious, but it wasn't shame around, there wasn't shame around sex. It was like my parents knew I was going to have sex before marriage. It wasn't like save yourself for marriage. I grew up in Santa Cruz, California, we had comprehensive. Of sex education. So we learned all about things like STIs, pregnancy, the things you, you know, not to do, but pleasure was never a part of the conversation with my parents or in the school system. You can't talk about pleasure, like, here's how you have a powerful orgasm, right? Um, SO, so anyways, so like it would make sense even though my, though my upbringing was progressive. That my parents discovering that I was looking at big dick.com where I saw what a blowjob really was. No, they're not blowing, um, that I still would have lied and, and, you know, I went through that shame process like, oh my God, my parents know I'm a pervert or a sexual being or I'm interested in this thing, so I have to lie, um, because I wasn't getting the information about pleasure. So that's my long-winded answer of. The ways people go and learn about this, yeah, but we have the internet, we go and watch porn. Porn is wonderful for entertainment and arousal. It is not the best unless it's educational porn, like what Erica Lust does. Erica Lust is amazing, um, educational porn where it's real bodies who are really experiencing pleasure, and they're getting paid well, right? Um, BUT most porn is not there to teach you how to do threesomes or how to do anal. It is doing things really quickly, not showing you the hard, tricky stuff that, you know, especially the conversations, and that's how people are learning. Then they go and do it, and then like say anal sex, for example, then they go and do it and they're like, I never want to do that, do that again. That felt terrible because they did it the way they saw in porn, which is like slamming in. Don't even use lube, everyone. Uber lube, game changer, use Uber lube every time you have anal, especially, but for all sex. Um, AND then, but luckily now we do have, um, educational platforms, right? I said Erica Lust. There's also other educational platforms like, you know, podcasts like yours, like mine, right, where we can learn, um, and a lot of people are visual learners. So then there's like the video form. There's educated is great. They have a whole platform with all kinds of educational videos that you can watch. Um, SO, but people really have to seek that out, right? They have to like know about that and go seek that out on their own. So it is available, but most people, unfortunately, are using porn as their educator. And that's why, again, another reason why I have a job cause I'm here to try to fix all the bullshit that you've learned in porn that's not accurate.

13:06 Ricardo Lopes: But, but you know what, it's kind of funny because in my own personal history, I mean, actually I learned proper things about sex from porn stars because what happened was that back in 2000, I want to say 2007, it might have. In 2006, I'm not sure, but Nina Hartley released her book Nina Hartley's Guide to Total Sex, and so I mean it was basically a porn star educating people on sex, and then she also has that series from the 2000s which is basically a video series of the book. But it's porn, but sex education at the same time. So I mean, I just, I'm just saying that if you look into the proper sources, uh, people who are porn stars can also teach you proper sex,

14:05 Amy Baldwin: and it's people who are porn stars that Care, right? They care about, about offering the world, a different message beyond just sensationalism, beyond just entertainment. Nina Hartley certainly is that good for you for discovering that right early on in the game because not all porn stars care about that, right? They're just, it's a, it's a job, um, for, for Nina Hartley, she is an activist. She's an educator, and so she, she really took a different angle, um, and she's not the only one that does it. There's, there's other porn stars. I just forgot the name. I totally know her. She's been on our podcast. But anyways, um, I, it'll come to me at some point. She's amazing. There's other porn stars who do this, and I think it's really important work. Porn stars are amazing humans. They are sexual athletes. They're really skilled at what they do. People discredit their careers, and they like think that it's not a, what a skill to go and have one, sex on camera, two sex on camera for extended periods of time. Um, 3, like, but they're very in tune often, not all of them, right? But like, hopefully with really good ethical porn, they're very in tune with their bodies, with their pleasure, with, you know, like the whatever, all the angles, all the things, so, Don't discredit that, but you, but like I would just wouldn't rely on like, you know, going to Pornhub or whatever to learn how to do most things related to sex.

15:28 Ricardo Lopes: 000 no, definitely not Pornhub, no, nor any of those websites. I mean you can do that for fun, of course, but not to learn about real sex, let's say. So, but I, I mean, when is it that you think people should seek help? I mean, what are perhaps some of the I don't know, factors that or, or signs that they should look into when they're having difficulty in bed and uh instead of just really trying to figure out how to solve the issue by themselves, they should perhaps seek the help of, I don't know, a sexologist or a psychotherapist or a sex coach or someone like that. I mean, when is it that people really need to Uh, ask for help.

16:20 Amy Baldwin: Yeah, I think it's when, when you're, when or if you hit a point, and I think most people who live a long life will hit this point, especially in long-term relationships, where you're feeling really stuck and lost, right? It's like that, that feeling of like, I can't figure this thing out. I can't, I like, I know that there's change available. I hear about it, I've seen it, I want it, but I just, I can't. I'm trying the things, or I don't even know what the things are, so I need someone to tell me what the things are, because it's really different for everyone. Um, SO it's, it's a little bit of like a, uh, you know, a, a lost, stuck feeling, at least, you know, when I work with clients, um, but these days I'm mostly focusing on working with couples, but I have worked with a lot of individuals as well, and I still work with with the individuals within the couples. Um, AND, and they're usually at a point of like, stuck in some sort of pattern, loop, a disconnection, or for individuals, it's like a disconnection with your body, right? Like maybe an example for an individual would be, um, like, let's say for a pussy owner, a common one would be like and it's really hard to feel your own pleasure. Um, TO feel connected to your body, and, and, and, and you're trying the things, you're having sex, and it's just like is not changing, right? But you want, you have to also want this, this shift, right? No one reaches out to a coach or therapist, they don't want it though, because like that's like the big leap. Um, OR like a penis owner, right, who, uh, you're, you know, you can get erections when you masturbate, but then the minute you're with a partner, your cock goes soft, and, you know, you know you can take Viagra and things, but you really wanna learn for yourself, like, what is this? What is it about being with people that makes it hard to be hard? Um, WITHOUT medication. So, yeah, it's, it's that you're like, I'm, you're kind of feeling stuck, and then maybe like fed up, like ready for, for big changes to really live your life, and I think that's one of the, the, the blessings, the beauty and the curse of living this day and age, is we have access to all this information through social media, YouTube, podcasts, the TV, you know, all those things to see what is available, which is great. It's like puts all these things like, oh my God, I can have that too. I, if I work towards this, I can have that too. But the curse is, you know, we want it all, so, and we maybe can't necessarily have it all, and another curse is we see specific ideas of how it should be, and our variation is different. It's different for everyone, and so a lot of people are striving to be just like, That one character, like maybe some people here or see me and they want to be more like Amy Baldwin. Sure, you can maybe learn some things that are Amy Baldwin or that I do that works for me, that work for you, but some of the things that work for me won't work for you or not you. So, um, yeah, so I, I think that that is uh something that can really push people and inspire them to like, to take the leap to do work because they have access to seeing what is available.

19:13 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, by the way, how can people learn about their sexual preferences? Of course, because people have to explore, to do some exploration, to really learn about their own sexual preferences, but how can they do it in a safe And by safe I mean not only safe physically and sexually but also safe in terms of feeling that they are not being judged or they are not being exposed in any way that will make them feel shame or something like that and particularly if to learn about one's sexual preferences they need some, some of it they need to do it. With a partner and they might be afraid that, oh, OK, if I ask my sexual or romantic partner to try this or try that because I'm not sure if I might like it or not, maybe it will ruin the relationship. Maybe they will look down on me, maybe they will think bad of me, something like that. Maybe I will feel shame. I mean, what's the safest or what are the safest ways of doing that?

20:29 Amy Baldwin: Yeah. Uh, I, I think, uh, it, it all starts with the individual, right? So, uh, we say this for, for pleasure, we say like, you, you know, learn your own body and what your body wants and likes before you go and share your body with other people, or you expect other people to understand your body. Um, A lot of people are, are having sex just assuming someone's going to understand them, or figure them out, or even teach them what they like, and that can happen. But don't rely on that, um, that that could be a major disappointment. Um, SO this is, there's a lot of opportunity for you to go learn your body, everything from the mechanics, right? Like just the masturbation practice, like what do my genitals or what does my body like in terms of touch. Once you have the information, you can share that with partners when, and when you know that you're more, you're already a more confident lover because you know your body, your body isn't a big mystery to you. I mean, you won't fully ever understand your body and your body is always changing. Um, BUT, but yeah, so then you, so then you have more information to share with people, but the same goes for your, your like emotional health, your wants, your needs, desires, not just like how you have an orgasm or experience physical pleasure. Uh, I was just talking about this with, um, the, our marketing director who I'm just gusted on our podcast on Shameless Sex, the podcast. Um, BECAUSE she is in the Somatica training right now, which is a sex and relationship coaching training that is very much about, um, it's very experiential and very much about, um, being embodied and having real, real-time experiences, um, that imprint you, that change you, that, that give you the experience of I'm safe or I'm sexual or I experience pleasure. Um, AND so we were just talking about this, one of the things that they teach that I think is gold is, um, and it's, and it also originates from Um, Jack Morin's work, I think he passed away maybe in the 80s, maybe the 90s, but he wrote the book, The Erotic Mind and Celeste and Danielle at Somatica have revamped it to be called Core Desires, and, and it's discovering within yourself, not like lick here, touch there, like, what do I want in the mechanics of like hands, mouths, penises, dildos, sex toys. Um, IT'S how do I wanna feel as a sexual being? How do I want to feel when I'm touching or being touched? Um, AND that, that cause that feeling is really important and is pretty consistent throughout your sexual life. So if, and that, and everyone's feeling is really different. It really speaks to them, and the fun thing about the feeling is really fun and interesting and also wacky is that it stems from your childhood. Um, SO that's not very sexy, but it comes from how your primary caregivers did or did not show up from you. There's some other things too, but like, as we know, all this stuff stems from childhood, including sexuality, including interests, desires, fantasies, things you're not into. Um, AND so when you understand this feeling, and there's a whole practice on how to learn about it, go check out Celeste and Danielle's work on Core Desires, um, when you understand the feeling, like for me, how I wanna feel is I wanna feel taken care of. Um, IT doesn't mean my partner buys me gifts and flowers and like, you know, has to take me on trips around the world. It's, I wanna feel energetically and emotionally. ALLY taken care of and there's a sense of safety there like my partner's got this. If I scream, yell, cry, squirt, pee the bed, whatever, they're all good, right? Like, and that they've got this, and in fact they're like so into me and turned on that none of that matters, right? Um, AND so there's something about that, that if I have that feeling every time I have sex with someone, I'm going to have good, if not great sex. If I have sex without that feeling, I could still probably have OK sex, but it probably wouldn't be sustainable, um. So go and learn more about that. Go and learn more about your fantasies. Listen to podcast episodes that are about fantasy and give you a whole bunch of ideas about different fantasies, the options on the menu. Play with it in your spank bank while you masturbate and see, is this my jam? And then you go, and of course, you need to learn the communication skills to share this with partners, but then you can share this with partners and lovers. So it's like the more research you do, combined with having the experiences, I mean that's like the masturbating to the fantasy to see if it's your jam, the more that will solidify your confidence and your connection to you, and what works and what doesn't work, and then, and the last thing I'll say with this one is, Having partners who can really meet you where you're at, that don't judge you, that don't say, oh, that's weird, or that's not normal, or you're too much of this, or you should be more of that, and, and, you know, being able to explore sexually with people who are not those things. In itself is healing and and will create will change you in a positive way. So if you're having sexual experiences with people who are judgy, who you say, hey, I'd like to try spanking, and they're like, Oh God, that's like abuse. That's bad. What's wrong with you? That's not normal. Stop having sex with those people like, or, or like, or change the way, change the way you're opening like, or, or bring that up to them if they're maybe in your long-term relationship, you can't stop having sex with them. Let that, sorry, the conversation at that point needs to be, hey, I'm feeling very shamed when I share, when I open up with you about this really vulnerable thing that I'm being met with a response that that feels really judgy, and it, and I, my response is I don't wanna open up. And then maybe you need a coach, right? Um, BUT look at those things as teachers, like even those moments, those hard moments of my partners being a shitty partner right now, they're judging me as opportunities to share feed loving feedback with your partner, um, and, and then growth can happen from there.

26:08 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, and if people want to learn more about sexual fantasies and why most probably the fantasies that they have are not really that abnormal. It's just that people don't openly talk about them. Go read Doctor Justin Le Miller's book, Tell me what you want and watch my interview with him from uh October. Last year or November last year, it's a, it's a really fascinating thing. So but how should people go about asking their partners what they want? I mean, I don't know if it's, for example, a man who wants to try anal sex with his female partner or, I mean, Sometimes, and it, it's kind of funny because I, I'm from the same generation as you. I mean, I'm a, I'm a millennial. I'm 35, about to turn 36, so, but even when I was in college, one thing that was still very prevalent among uh young men back then was that there was still lots of A stigma, let's say associated with a man performing oral sex on a woman. I mean, even my colleagues back then, some of them were like, Oh, I don't do that to my girlfriend. That's disgusting. I'm not into that, blah blah blah, but

27:30 Amy Baldwin: I'll get my dick sucked,

27:33 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, yeah, exactly. But and They looked at it as if it was kind of a mesty emasculating, you know, so, but, but of course, but women, of course, like that. So I mean, how should people try to communicate with their partner that they want or they would like for to, to experiment with specific kinds of things.

27:58 Amy Baldwin: Yeah, and I think when you're the way when you're talking about this, I'm thinking of like two different scenarios. One is, one is, um, I'd like to try something brand new that we've never done before, and another would could be I'd like to shift something that we're doing in, you know, in a different way because it's not really working for me. Um, WHICH is really hard for people to hear, especially the latter, because then they get in their, in their heads, like I'm not good enough, you know, their worthiness barriers come up and, and even though we know we're not sexual wizards and born knowing everything, our systems still wanna pretend like we do, so, but it's not true. Um, AND there are ways to, to say, so, to have those hard conversations that are more loving and gentle, right? If I'm like, Uh, I don't like the way you touch my pussy, right? That's gonna automatically cause a problem. Someone's just gonna be like, well, I mean, for most people, some people could, could handle that, um, but, you know, so if we're speaking to altering something that's already happening, um, so let's, let's say, let's use the, the, um, the, or actually let's go with the example that that you had there with like, Uh, a relationship with a man and a woman and a man who doesn't go down on his woman, and she wants him to go down on her. So let's use that example, um, and so she's desiring more of this, but they've been together. Let's say maybe they did it for 6 months, and she's like, he's like, he's gone down on me once. It looks like I've had these clients. He's gone on me once. It looks like he hates it. He's like waiting for it to end. He's maybe he's doing the ABCs. He's just not into it, but I want this, right, whether I know I've orgasm from him or not, I want this, so. Well, in that scenario, this is, this is a harder conversation. I wouldn't have this conversation during sex when people are naked, etc. This, you wanna have this conversation outside of the tricky, vulnerable space, because when we're naked or, or having sex, maybe you're not naked when you're having sex, maybe, or right before sex or during after. People are in their more like delicate vulnerable space because it, it is, it's sucks, right? It's edgy, um, have the conversation outside the bedroom. Maybe you're, you know, in, in when everyone's in good spirits, you're not in a rush, right? So maybe you're going for a walk or maybe you have some time in the morning and you're going to sit down and have coffee with your partner, um, and you want to bring this up. But, but when you bring it up, don't corner them. Don't be like, hey. Uh, I'm like, I wanna talk to you about this, this thing with my pussy that you're not doing, right? Don't do it that way. Ask them permission first, and this is very much in our book, um, in Shameless Sex, the book, we have a whole chapter on communication and we have Um, an acronym called connected, and it's a formula with these steps for having tricky conversations, um, and one of the big steps there is, um, you wanna get permission first, give, or you're also giving permission, right? But hey, do I have permission to open up this really challenging conversation with you or something that could be triggering? I wanna, there's Something that's really important to me, I've been thinking about related to our sex life, and I'm wondering if now is a good time to talk about it. Chances are they're gonna say yes because they're, if they're like, you know, even if they're busy, they're like super anxious and wanna talk about it. But if not, if they're, if they say, no, now is not a good time, schedule a time. OK, so say they say, yes, now is a good time. So now, start talking about the thing, but I would recommend, April calls this a shit sandwich, but I recommend speaking to something that really is working to start, that helps the nervous system. Settle down, feel like everyone's doing a good job, and make sure it's authentic, right? So, it could be as simple as like, I'm, I, I love, I love you, right? Or I love our relationship, or um I'm just having so much fun exploring in the bedroom with you, something like that. And now you're gonna follow it with the thing that you're asking for, that you're wanting more of. And I have had, I've, I've I'm someone that has had orgasms from oral sex in the past, from someone going down on me. It's something that I really enjoy, it's something that isn't happening a lot in our relationship, and I'm really curious, and I would actually with that one I'd be, cause I would be curious like as to the why, but you don't wanna grill the person. Like I'm really curious if you're open to doing that more, or if you have any feelings about it, like why that's not something you're, you're doing regularly, um, and so you're, so you're bringing curiosity in there. You're not like making assumptions, you're not telling the person they're wrong, they're bad, you're saying, here's me and what I want more of, and I'm also really curious, like how you feel about this, and then you start to have the conversation. So that's kind of like, that's with something that's already happening. Um, I can stop at that cause then I have an example for, uh, for something that, um, you're, that is like a new thing, that which is a much easier trick.

32:37 Ricardo Lopes: OK. Uh, LOOK, another question that I have here is, is there any amount of sex that is abnormal? I mean, because, OK, we can, we can go to the two extremes, right? I mean, we can think about perhaps people having too little sex, and of course nowadays, for example, we are more and more aware of the existence of a. Sexual people, I mean, people who are really not into sex and they are just part of the normal human variation. So, I mean, that's perfectly normal, I think. But then, uh, within people who are sexual, which is the vast majority of humanity, I mean, do you think that there's really an X number of Time that if people are coupled, they should be having sex a week or a month or whatever amount of time. I mean, is there a minimum because, because, or is it more of a matter of whether both parties are satisfied with the amount of sex they're having and The number of times per day, per week, per month, whatever is not really that important, and, uh, I mean, is there, and on the other end of the spectrum, can people be having too much sex? I mean, is that a thing at all or or

34:09 Amy Baldwin: no?

34:10 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah,

34:10 Amy Baldwin: yeah, so with the, so with the former, the one about how much sex people should be having, it's really different for everyone. Um, I believe, at least in the United States, the, the definition, or one of the definitions of a sexless marriage is having sex, I think it's under 11 times a year, and that's interesting to me, but that doesn't apply to everyone. I know some couples who just really aren't. Uh, LIKE super sexual beings, they're maybe still like very loving, affectionate, but actual sex really isn't just, isn't something that is very interesting to them or drives them. Um, AND they're not necessarily asexual, it's just not that important. And so if you have two people that feel the same way, then maybe having sex under 11 times a year is just fine for them. But, you know, what happens when you're with, you're in a relationship with, you know, one or more people, you're taking into account different libidos, right? Different appetites, different interest levels, desires. It really makes things complicated, but that's relationships. Um, AND so it really does, it matters what, what, you know, what I want and what my partner wants, and then putting those together in a way where everyone feels like their needs are getting met. So if my partner wants to have sex every day, and I'm more like, I only wanna have sex 3 times a week, I've heard Some therapists and educators say, then you go with the lower one or something. I'm more of a fan of figuring out all of the ways that you can lean in, not to become the other person, so I'm not gonna all of a sudden, oh yeah, now I need to learn to, to like sex every day because my partner likes that. More like, OK, my partner wants sex every day. I'm, I'm more into 3 times a week. First of all, what does sex mean to me though? Is sex always involving penetration? Can sex just be oral sex or, or hand sex or us getting naked and grinding at each other and making out? Because if it can, then I'm I'm actually more open to having sex every day as long as this is just an example, right, but I think that's a common one is that that we start to assume all, all any sort of like erotic touch leads to penetration. It has to lead to penetration and that penetration is the is sex. Um, WHICH can be a lot of pressure for people, um, and so, so yeah, it's really a like leaning in. How far can you lean into your partner's needs? How far can they lean into your needs without anyone losing themselves entirely? Uh, I think that is, is the goal for, for figuring out how often you should be having sex, but also know that this will change, you know, if you're in a long-term relationship for You know, 1020, 30 years, and you're, you know, we age and your hormones change, or you go through different traumatic experiences in life, sex, desire for sex changes. Um, YOU know, I'm someone, I'm now, um, thank you, uh, thank you to Swan Medical in Los Gatos, California. Um, I am, uh, on test or on testosterone. I'm doing hormone replacement therapy at age 41. Because in my mid to late 30s, I started to notice my libido naturally was just kind of dropping. I, I'm a sex educator, I know all the tools, and it shifted, and so I started working with them, um, and, but, you know, and, and that made it so, but I did wasn't doing it to make my partner happy. I wasn't doing it to make sure I was able to have sex as much as they wanted. I was doing it because I wanted to feel more alive. Um, SO I highly recommend that if you're in the United States, go check out swan MD.com. There, it's a game changer. Um, BUT anyway, so that's that one about how much the too muchness. The only reason why I would say it's possible to have too much sex would be if you're starting to notice that it is affecting your everyday life, meaning like, and, and as you probably know, the jury is still out on sex addiction within the human sexuality field. There are people, it's like half the people don't think sex addiction is real and half the people do. So I'm not going to tell you what what is true and what is not, but if you feel like sex or masturbation is starting to affect your everyday life, like you're not showing up for your job, you're losing sleep, you're, you know, you're feeling like it's, it's harming your health or your relationships, then maybe you are having too much sex. It's usually not the case, so, it's usually not that people having too much sex, it's usually more like masturbation or porn issue as opposed to actually the physical act.

38:30 Ricardo Lopes: Do you think that if the sex drive, if there's a big discrepancy between the sex drives of each partner, there are any scenarios where it could be, it could make sense without hurting the relationship, of course, particularly in the long term. IF the partner who has the highest sex drive, it compensates with, it compensates it with watching porn, I mean, or can that be harmful for the relationship?

39:05 Amy Baldwin: I think they totally could. I, it really depends on you, uh, as the viewer watching the porn. It depends on the porn that you're watching, it depends on how you utilize the porn. Um, SO like one thing you want to watch out for is, uh, like the same thing with sex toys, right, because porn sex toys could go in, in a similar category of like either a bonus or replacement. I don't wanna say replacement. I talk about sex toys though, because a lot of men in particular. Can feel threatened by sex toys like it's replacing you. The sex toy can't make at this point still because I mean, the technology is changing, but it doesn't make out with you. It doesn't tell you you're beautiful and I love you. It doesn't snuggle you. You're not being replaced. It is just pleasure. It's a bonus, um, but, you know, if you're starting to use these things as something to, to satisfy you outside of your relationship, nothing wrong with that. But if you notice your system starting to want that more than your relationship, you know, having sex with your partner. That's something to look at. That could mean one, you're just not compatible with your partner. Your partner's not compatible with you. It's a bad fit. Or two, that you're starting to use this other thing too much that you're getting like. Like so accustomed to it that the that the real thing isn't really landing for you the way this other porn can be very intense. It's like the fast lane to pleasure, same with sex toys. So, I'd say you like watching porn and using sex toys, you're using these things in ways that are a bonus that are enhancing your life, and if you start to notice times or moments where it doesn't feel like it's doing that, slow down or don't, or take a break and reassess the situation.

40:46 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, another thing that I've talked about with Dr. Nicole Brosi on the show a few years ago when we were talking about the neuroscience of the neuroscience and psychology of pornography was that at a certain point I asked her if there could be an issue if one of the Partners watches porn and the other doesn't, and she told me that for example if it's the man watching the porn and the woman not, then one thing that could happen, it doesn't necessarily happen but could happen is that the woman starts feeling a little bit insecure because they might. Uh, SHE might start asking herself, oh, if he's, if he's watching porn or if he's watching so much porn, is it because the, uh, female performers are more sexier, more beautiful than I am, or, or it might be because I'm not as good in bed as they are or something like that. So do, do you agree with that?

41:47 Amy Baldwin: I, yeah, I, I, I, I do not, and it's a slippery, it could, can be a slippery slope. It really, again, it's the responsibility of the viewer to just, just like with anything when we eat sugar, right, we need to be careful about how much sugar we eat and, you know, with Porn or, you know, sex, drugs, rock and roll, all of the things, right? There is, there is, there's an importance around balance and that if we bombard our systems with too much of something, we can become really accustomed to it and have a hard time relating to the outside world without that thing, you know, becomes like a crutch or an addiction. Um, BUT it, it is really common for people to feel insecure about their partner watching porn. I always remind people like for or even like working with cam models or, or sex workers, right? Um, YOU know, I actually think if your partner is going to go and, and be intimate with someone else, like say you have some, some non-monogamy set up where they can go and be intimate with someone else, maybe it's a hall pass. A sex worker is a lot. Safer than an everyday person because they generally are not looking to fall in love with your partner. So, um, if you know that it's a, it's a little bit of a safer bet or a cam model. They're online. They're not actually physically touching your partner and they probably aren't looking to date your partner too. And and

43:06 Ricardo Lopes: also sexually, a sex worker is safer as well because they always use condoms and all of that,

43:13 Amy Baldwin: right? They're, they're exactly. Everyone thinks this is a dirt, they're dir. You're like, no, they're actually, they're, they're more sexually wise and responsible. So, so it's a, it's a safer bet. But that insecurity of like, uh, you know, what if that I'm not hot enough and the porn star is more attractive, they're not gonna leave you for the porn star because the porn star is not even trying to be with your partner in the first place. So I would get over that whole feeling. But when you have those insecurities come up again, look at this as an opportunity. To do a deep dive into yourself, get curious. Why am I feeling so insecure that when my partner watches porn, that I'm not good enough? What is that about? Maybe that's my own stuff about how I feel about my body, how I feel about my my, my sexual performance. Maybe that's something for me to work on. Now, if your partner is watching porn and not having sex with you, and you wanna have sex with your partner, That's a whole another can of worms, that's a whole another issue, right? Like your partner, your partner is in fact abandoning you for porn. That is a relationship issue. Um, BUT just because your partner is experiencing pleasure and joy, um, by watching porn and masturbating, and they're still interested in you, attracted to you, and having sex with you, that there, there, this shouldn't be a threat to, to you as a person, but that's how a lot of people perceive it.

44:30 Ricardo Lopes: By the way, since you mentioned sex workers, within this sort of more sexually positive approach that you have, a sex positive approach that you have, do you also include sex workers in that? I mean, what kind of role do you think sex workers can play in a sexually healthy and positive society? And I mean, I'm not sure if you identify as a feminist or if you are into feminism, but do you think that when it comes to women being able to express themselves sexually, to be sexually liberated, that we should also include The possibility of them being sex workers in debt or not.

45:20 Amy Baldwin: If, if they want to 100%, right, it's, it's our bodies and so it's our right to do what we want with our bodies as long as we're not harming other people or taking away consent from other people. Um, SO I look at my body as like it's my own research project. I get to decide what, what I do with it, again, as long as I'm not harming other people along the way. Um, AND sex workers, oh, I actually had this, um, these clients. It was a couple, and they had both been married before. They're in their, you know, they're in their maybe late 50s or probably early 60s. I'm really bad at gauging age, but probably early 60s, and so they are remarried with each other. And she was in a sexless, like not sexless, sorry, a terrible marriage for like 20 or 30 years. It was actually an arranged marriage for a long time with a partner who didn't care about her pleasure, and she was convinced she didn't like sex. She was bad at sex. I think he even told her like, you're bad at sex only because she wasn't responding to his, him just fucking her the way he wanted to. Um, OF course she wasn't responding well to that, not wanting to have sex with him because the sex was not, not considerate. It wasn't connected. Um, ANYWAYS, so what she did is, is when she left that marriage, or maybe it was actually what inspired her to finally leave the marriage, she hired a male sex worker to teach, have sex with her, and to teach her about sex and her own pleasure, and the male sex worker, one, gave her pleasure in orgasms and told her she was an amazing lover. And so now she has these skills and she felt confident to go out there in the dating world. Now she has a new husband, and he knows this, and he's stoked for her because he's like, uh, lucky me. Like she did, you know, she's super confident. She learned some skills. She learned that she's a great lover. She learned, unlearned the bullshit that she was taught. So sex workers, I think, um, they play in a very important role in society. Um, WHETHER it's for people who don't have access to I mean, sex with someone else, like maybe you're just not getting laid as much as you want, or maybe you never have, maybe there's a deficit of touch in your world, and touch is really important, and you can pay someone to have sex with you, and they're benefiting cause they're getting paid, you know, it's a, they're making a living and you're benefiting because, you know, well, sex, pleasure and confidence, um, or if you, it's You know, if, or if it's something where you are needing, you know, to have a sexual experience with a sex worker to heal something. I mean, there's so many purposes behind sex work, so I think I'm all for sex workers who are choosing that for themselves, you know, they, they want this as their Career, whether it's porn or you're actually having sex with someone else, well, porn is still actually having sex with someone else for money, it's just on camera in a different way, so it's legal. Um, IT'S so that's so interesting to me, like that's, that that's that's OK, but if you're actually like handing someone money to have sex with you, that's any different, I don't know, whatever.

48:10 Ricardo Lopes: You know, it's, it's really interesting when you get to have conversations with sex workers because they tell you things that you would never imagine were happening. So for example, since I've been doing this series, as I mentioned, humanizing sex workers, I've had a conversation, for example, last November with Olivia Bentley, she's a high-end escort, and she told me things like that. For example, it happened to her that a woman took her own husband to her to for her to teach him how to have sex improperly. I mean, because he was really bad in bed, and then she also she and Alice Little, who is a NASCAR I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's awesome. They both told me that sometimes a family member like a mother, a father, an uncle, older brother would take, I mean, their son or their younger brother to a sex worker, prostitute to for for him to lose his virginity, and before that happened, he Really, I mean incredibly afraid of even approaching women, and then they just start becoming more confident and they're like, oh, OK, sex is good, sex is great, and it's not, and it's not something that I should be afraid of or something like that. And so they really build up their confidence based on that. And I mean there are many ways that people Who are really who never done that, who never interacted even with sex workers, don't even know happened and have sometimes even if in an unexpected way, a very positive impact on people's sexual lives.

50:05 Amy Baldwin: So I mean if I, when I first started having sex in my late teenage years, if I were to have had sex with a skilled person. Who knew how to be a great lover, knew how to work with me and my newness with my body and sexuality, knew how to make things really safe, you know, all things like all the, you know, learn, knew all of the hacks to be a great lover, um, and then it would have completely changed my sexual trajectory, meaning I wouldn't have had all the bullshit, terrible sex that I've had in my life, you know, I wouldn't have or the experiences that I had where I didn't listen to my body and I still pushed through it, you know, all those things. So I think we'd be a, a better, a better world if people's, for, you know, there was like a rites of passage for everyone to go and have sex with people or someone, but I mean it'd be kind of messy, right? Everyone now is thinking of pedophilia and stuff, so that you just just get over all of that stuff and, and just think about like if you as a person, your first time having sex, it was guaranteed. YOU'RE going to have sex with someone who was amazing, attentive, attuned, caring, safe lover, and how that could change your life, right? And sex workers can be that. I also know how sex workers, I know sex workers who some of their sessions, it's just someone crying in their arms while they're being like pet on the head and told that they're safe and they're wonderful and that they're, you know, that they're worthy, things like that, right? It, it comes, it's not just about fucking.

51:29 Ricardo Lopes: No, oh yeah, for sure. I mean, the conversations I've had on the show and even outside the show with sex workers, I mean, actually, I don't have proper data on that, but actually the impression I have is that the higher end sex worker you are, the higher end escort you are, the less sex you have with your clients. I mean, the more they're willing to pay for just spending time talking with them. Or just taking them out on weekends and stuff like that. So I, I mean they, they get, uh, higher, uh, they, they get more money for less sex.

52:10 Amy Baldwin: So yeah, totally, exactly, and, and, you know, I, I think if you, if you really break that down again, connection is a big word that that stands out here, right? Like sex is a part of connections. The connection is kind of more like the umbrella. Uh, OF, of in term for like something that we're seeking. Connection doesn't have to be deep conversations or eye gazing, or I love you or something, but connection can be, you know, just touch without words to just words without touch, right? But You know, uh, all humans for the most part, even the most introverted of humans, um, are desiring, you know, some sense of, of connection outside of themselves, um, and, and again, sex is a really, really wonderful avenue to, to do that, and, but not everyone has access to that, so enter sex workers, beautiful profession.

53:03 Ricardo Lopes: OK, so just one final topic slash question I'd like to ask you. Uh, WHAT can people do, particularly if they are in very long term relationships, I mean, uh, decades-long relationships sometimes, what can they do to keep sex interesting in the long term? Because that's one type of complaint that is that we very commonly hear from people in those kinds of situations.

53:31 Amy Baldwin: Mhm. Um, YEAH, the, the word curiosity is the first one that, that comes to mind. I think in long-term relationships, uh, people stop being curious about each other, and I'm not the only one that thinks that. In fact, I'm pretty sure this was inspired very much by, um, not Brene Brown, sorry, Esther Perel's work, um, and she Talks a lot about curiosity being gold in relationships, but in long-term relationships, so it's normal to habituate to your partner, that's a good thing, right? When we start to habituate, that means we feel safer, like, oh, I get you, I understand you, I know you well, so I can relax more, and that safety is really important for us to be able to be connected, but it doesn't necessarily, in at least in long term, it doesn't fuel hotness, desire, newness, things like that. Um, AND so curiosity is something that does fuel those things. So, fuel, not fuel, but fuel. Um, AND so what I would suggest is in long-term relationships, instead of waking up every day like, hey, partner, whom I've been with for 20 years, I know you really well, and I know how to, you know, talk to you, pleasure you, instead, ask yourself each day, who is my partner today? Like, like how can I get really curious about who my partner is today and, and knowing, knowing that, just like I was talking about perimenopause and aging. You know, we are always changing every day, every moment, we are, you, you know, a new variation of ourselves. Maybe we're not changing drastically, but, you know, this includes our hopes, dreams, fears, desires, needs, all of those things. Um, AND it's not like every day you have to be like, hey partner, tell me about what you need today, now, or like, what are your fantasies now? What about now? What about now, right? Not like that, but But people start taking their partners for granted, and that is a really common thing, like, we have a routine, we got a whole thing going, and now I feel like I don't need to put in the effort to constantly discovering you, um, and And, and part of that is also constant being, you have to be open to being constantly discovered, right? Um, SO it goes, it goes both ways, but um, I, I just really, it's like a reframing of how you view being in a relationship and how you view your partner. Um, AND, and then there's all the tools, right? Like you can create a yes, no, maybe list of different interests that you might wanna try, listen to podcasts like Shameless Sex or this podcast. Oh, I heard this thing, I wanna try this. I don't wanna try that. Right, newness is great, trying the new things, um, but curiosity has to happen before that, like, again, I think the connection is kind of more like the umbrella. Um, THING that we're navigating towards or off of for sexual engagements, um, you know, for long-term relationships, I think curiosity is, is really something that you want to, um, like write it, you know, write it on a whiteboard, and then all the other things that go under it that you wanna try, lick here, touch there, you know, watch this porn, have the gang bang, don't have the gang bang, that all comes after being curious. Um, YOU know, if you're meeting with your partner once a week, and you're doing sex life check-ins or just relationship check-ins, first, like, this is, this is great. You, you could, you could do this for 5 to 10 minutes, uh, once a week. Let first share what's working, what's really good in our relationship right now, then share something that each of you are wanting more of or want maybe interested in trying. Um, AND then if you, if there, you wanna be really edgy, then you can also share something that is like, maybe isn't, you know, isn't working, but that could also be part of what isn't what you wanna do, or sorry, what you want to try. Um, BUT you're, you're creating an opportunity for you both to share, I'd like to try this, or I'd like more of this. When it's one-sided, like if I'm going to my partner and I'm, I'm the one that's sharing, I'd want more or I'd like to try this. That can be kind of scary for my partner to receive because then it's one-sided, they're like, oh God, I'm, I'm the one not doing enough, and what's scary for me because I'm the one making the big ass. But when we create a container, you know, a setup situation where, you know, we're both going to share what we're wanting more of, what's not working and what's working, then it, then it opens up the doors for it to be, well, safer, um, and for a lot to happen. Oh, I didn't realize you're wanting me to go down on you more. I thought that once a week thing was working really well. Oh yeah, no, I'm, I'm totally down to do that more. I will start doing that. Thank you for telling me, like things like that. You might hear things you just never thought, but they're so simple, could completely change your sex and relationships just because you're not talking about it. So if it's hard to talk about things, create that container to start doing that.

58:04 Ricardo Lopes: Great. So, uh, where can people find your work? I mean, your podcast, of course, it's on YouTube, but uh, where, where other places on the internet and social media and all of that can people find you?

58:18 Amy Baldwin: So we are, we mean April and I, April is, is not here. She has a big, she works for one of the biggest sex toy companies in the world. She's got a big old corporate girl job, so she's, she's quite busy, but she's always on shameless sex for the most part. Um, SO Shameless Sex is the podcast. Uh, WE'VE been doing this podcast since 2017. We release episodes every single week, every single Tuesday. We've never missed a Tuesday. We have, uh, over 500 episodes because we have a bunch of bonus episodes too. Um, AND you can find us any, just about anywhere where you listen to podcasts. Yes, we are. On YouTube. Um, WE are definitely more popular in the audio world, but we are, we are popular in the video. So yes, YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, all the things. Um, WE'RE also on social media. You can find us on Instagram at Shameless Sex podcast. I'm on Instagram. I'm Amy Shameless Sex. Also Facebook, all the things. I don't think we do X. We're not big X people. Um, BUT yeah, you can go and listen and learn. It's not just us doing the podcast. Yes, we are the hosts, but we have different guests of every single week. Everything from how to do anal sex to communication skills to Um, I don't know, non-monogamy 101, all kinds of, of stuff, uh, and it's just our favorite topic that ever. We have the book Shameless Sex. I'm just gonna call it that because the running title is so long. The book is not just stuff in the podcast. It's similar to, I don't know, this is a millennial thing, but if you ever read those choose your own adventure books from back in the day. Where it's a fiction book and you would, you read it and it'd be like, if like, do you want the Abominable Snowman to eat you, go to page 60. Do you want to save the kid from the Abominable Snowman? Go to page 80. It's written like that, but it's nonfiction and it's about how to do sex and relationships your way. So it's kind of like a guide or a map instead of a Telling you the answer to your issues or your inquiries, we say, what's the outcome that, what outcome do you want? If you want this outcome, go here, you want this outcome, go there. So you get to kind of be your own sex and relationship coach. You can find on our website, shameless sex.com. Uh, WE have the printed version. There probably is a Kindle, yeah, there's definitely a Kindle. And then there's the audiobook which we read ourselves. It is our voices because we have deep podcast voices. Um, LET'S see, what else? We do retreats, uh, generally in the United States, but we have done them in Costa Rica and Mexico before. Our upcoming retreats are sold out, but we are, we'll be releasing 2027 soon. Um, THEY'RE usually for couples, sometimes for just women, but they're fun, immersive, uh, retreats. They're not a sex party, unfortunately. There are other retreats for that, but they're not ours. Uh, AND yeah, that's pretty much the main things that we've, we focus on over here in shameless sex world. I'm probably missing some things, but shameless sex.com, shameless sex podcast, pretty easy.

1:00:57 Ricardo Lopes: Awesome. So this has been really fun. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm, and if there's any other opportunity in the future to have another conversation, it would be great.

1:01:07 Amy Baldwin: Thank you so much for having me.

1:01:10 Ricardo Lopes: Hi guys, thank you for watching this interview until the end. If you liked it, please share it, leave a like and hit the subscription button. The show is brought to you by Enlights Learning and Development done differently. Check their website at enlights.com and also please consider supporting the show on Patreon or PayPal. I would also like to give a huge thank you to my main patrons and PayPal supporters, Perergo Larsson, Jerry Mulleran, Frederick Sundo, Bernard Seyaz Olaf, Alex, Adam Cassel, Matthew Whittingberrd, Arnaud Wolff, Tim Hollis, Eric Elena, John Connors, Philip Forst Connolly. Then Dmitri Robert Windegerru Inai Zu Mark Nevs, Colin Holbrookfield, Governor, Michel Stormir, Samuel Andrea, Francis Forti Agnun, Svergoo, and Hal Herzognon, Michel Jonathan Labrarinth, John Yardston, and Samuel Curric Hines, Mark Smith, John Ware, Tom Hammel, Sardusran, David Sloan Wilson, Yasilla Dezaraujo Romain Roach, Diego Londono Correa. Yannik Punter DaRosmani, Charlotte Blis Nicole Barbaro, Adam Hunt, Pavlostazevski, Alekbaka Madison, Gary G. Alman, Semov, Zal Adrian Yei Poltonin, John Barboza, Julian Price, Edward Hall, Edin Bronner, Douglas Fry, Franco Bartolati, Gabriel Pancortez or Suliliski, Scott Zachary Fish, Tim Duffy, Sony Smith, and Wisman. Daniel Friedman, William Buckner, Paul Georg Jarno, Luke Lovai, Georgios Theophanous, Chris Williamson, Peter Wolozin, David Williams, Dio Costa, Anton Ericsson, Charles Murray, Alex Shaw, Marie Martinez, Coralli Chevalier, Bangalore atheists, Larry D. Lee Jr. Old Eringbon. Esterri, Michael Bailey, then Spurber, Robert Grassy, Zigoren, Jeff McMahon, Jake Zul, Barnabas Raddix, Mark Kempel, Thomas Dovner, Luke Neeson, Chris Story, Kimberly Johnson, Benjamin Galbert, Jessica Nowicki, Linda Brendan, Nicholas Carlson, Ismael Bensleyman. George Ekoriati, Valentine Steinmann, Per Crawley, Kate Van Goler, Alexander Obert, Liam Dunaway, BR, Massoud Ali Mohammadi, Perpendicular, Jannes Hetner, Ursula Guinov, Gregory Hastings, David Pinsov, Sean Nelson, Mike Levin, and Jos Necht. A special thanks to my producers Iar Webb, Jim Frank Lucas Stinnik, Tom Vanneden, Bernardine Curtis Dixon, Benedict Mueller, Thomas Trumbull, Catherine and Patrick Tobin, John Carlomon Negro, Al Nick Cortiz, and Nick Golden, and to my executive producers, Matthew Lavender, Sergio Quadrian, Bogdan Kanis, and Rosie. Thank you for all.