#1296 Carolyn Kraft: Discussing the Ethics and Legality of Sex Work

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Ricardo Lops, and today I'm joined by a fellow YouTuber, Caroline Kraf. She's the YouTuber behind Crafty Thinking, where she applies philosophy to modern topics so that you understand why people believe what they believe. And today we're going to talk about the different takes that people have. On sex work because Carolyn has done recently a video on feminist perspectives on sex work and she also done an interview about it. So we're, and I of course have an ongoing series on my channel called Humanizing Sex Workers. So that's what we're going to talk about today. So Carolyn, welcome to the show. It's a big pleasure to

00:48 Carolyn Kraft: everyone. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. I think this is a really interesting topic, so I'm excited to talk to someone about it.

00:54 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, me too. I've been exploring it for a few years now, so, uh, I mean, I'm really glad that you accepted the invitation. So, but before we get into the actual topic, let me just ask you, uh, more of a personal question. I mean, what got you interested in this topic specifically? What do you think is, uh, I mean, what stimulates you intellectually about it or intellectually or otherwise, of course.

01:20 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, so, I mean, there's a couple of answers to that question. So, in undergrad, I majored in political science and I took a class on um sex work, sex trafficking, and that entire kind of topic. It was a quarter long class, and we looked at different arguments in support of and against, and we look at statistics and data and all of that, and I found it really interesting. It's just fascinating because I hadn't looked at it in that way before. I really hadn't thought much about it in general. I also was on the board of a nonprofit organization, and my position, um, it, it was a little unrelated to what the actual nonprofit was supposed to do, but my job was to bring presentations once a week to the organization and either me or someone in my A small subcommittee would give a presentation on a topic. And I decided one day that I wanted to give a 45 minute presentation on sex work and whether we should legalize it, decriminalize it, or keep it criminalized. And it just generated a great conversation. And um it, it, it brought something to the surface that I hadn't really thought of before, like what criminalization actually does or what legalization. DOES. And we looked at like Nevada because some counties in Nevada have um legalized it, and we looked at the Nordic model, which is more decrim model um up in Northern Europe. And it was just a great conversation. Then I went to law school and I took a class on sex trafficking in law school. And we had two women who were survivors of sex trafficking. And of course, sex trafficking is Not the same as sex work, but there is a lot of crossover and a lot of people talk about it. It is in the same realm. And so we had two survivors who also had opinions on expanding and legalizing sex work and their thoughts of that from their own personal perspective, which I thought was really fascinating. And so, just after all of these conversations I've had and being in classes, I really wanted to cover it. Also, I talk about ethics a lot on my page. I talk about laws a lot and philosophy like you mentioned when you introduced me, and so I've talked about surrogacy. I've talked a lot about bodily autonomy, um, from the position of abortion. I've talked about, uh, bottle or just the concept of consent. And so what I find fascinating about the entire sex work debate is that it touches a lot of different topics that we wouldn't think were relevant until we dove in, like bodily consent, right? Bodily consent is something that applies to abortion, it applies to sex work, it applies to decriminalizing drugs. Applies to um assisted death, all that kind of stuff. OK, so like, maybe we should talk about it if it, if it touches all those points. Um, AND similarly, you know, you have the idea that they're feminists, right? But they disagree on what we should do about sex work. That's fascinating. They come from very different philosophical backgrounds on what we should do with sex work in whatever country or in the world. And so I just, I kind of wanted to Introduce my audience to that and expand on it and help people realize that these conversations are things that can be applicable to other things, and that's why we should be having them.

04:20 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, that's really fascinating. I mean, my own personal experience is just that I'm a very open-minded person when it comes to exploring topics that are taboo in society, generally speaking, and Uh, I mean, I've been fascinating, fascinated by this topic since I read, uh, intellectual on an intellectual level, since I read Gerald Mosley, who's a former attorney from California, sex workers and their clients, which was released back in 2021, if I remember correctly, I interviewed him in 2024, and then since then I just, uh, back, uh, late last year, I decided to start a series on. My show called Humanizing Sex Workers, and I've been having conversations on the show mainly with female escorts and porn stars, and I mean just personally and maybe uh you could say that because of that I'm a little bit biased when it comes to the topic, but that's perfectly fine with me. Uh I also have 6 or 7 sex worker friends. I mean, 2 of them are porn stars and the other 4 or 5 are escorts, and I, I mean they have different sorts of experiences. One or 2 perhaps have a more negative experience. Uh, THE others, um, and then the other 3 or 4 have positive experiences, particularly the porn stars, and then the others are sort of neutral in a way, so it's More of a, yeah, OK, uh, I, I mean, I do this, it's mostly for the money. I mean, I could do other things, but the men, the money wouldn't be as good and, uh, also I wouldn't have uh such freedom when it comes to my schedule and things like that. So, you know, but I, uh, just to say that I also have direct, uh, personal experience because of those, uh, friendships that I have, so.

06:25 Carolyn Kraft: Mhm. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, that's great to have that kind of that background and that experience. Um, I do want to say just for your audience and for the sake of, so they know who I am, I don't take sides. Um, USUALLY when I talk about these topics, I try and argue both sides. That's what my video does. I argue both sides on three main points on sex work or the 3 big debates. And so in this case, I'm not going to be taking a personal opinion. Uh, THAT being said, I will be counter, I, I'll probably. Counter things you say similar to how you will probably counter what I say, and I'll be, you know, arguing both sides and stuff. So I just kind of want to say just because I say something does not mean that that is my personal opinion.

07:04 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, I, I mean, I mean during our conversation here, which I don't really intend to be a debate, it's more an exploration of the different facets of sex work. I mean, uh, I, I might also use, um, argue. Moments that I don't agree with. It's just to explore the topic here. So, uh, but I mean, do you think that it's important for us to define what sex work is and to understand what really counts as sex work, because sometimes, I don't know, maybe people might have an incorrect understanding of what counts as sex work, and I know that for example there are Organizations that stand that position themselves against sex work and are associated, for example, with Christian values and they go all the way to claiming even that things like women in magazines that present women in bikinis that also counts as sex work, which to me sounds a bit weird. So I mean there are some. Dreams there, but what is your opinion on that?

08:19 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, that's a hard one. It is interesting. I actually brought that up and asked Keza that in my interview. What exactly is sex work? And, um, you know, that's the individual from Sweden that I that I interviewed, and she's against legalizing sex work. She supports the Nordic model. And it's a hard definition because, you know, does pornography, is that included? What about stripping? What about sugar daddies? What about, you know, having a really wealthy Boyfriend who, you know, sends you on trips. What about being a stay at home mom, right? And you made your decision to marry someone because you wanted to be with a man who could provide, right? Like, where, where are we? And as you said, like, um, bikini models, is that sex work, you know, uh, and so I think we do need to find a definition for this, just at least for the sake of our conversation. Um, I would say, in, in, in the, in the context of our conversation, sex work should include, like the actual Physical act of sexual intimacy with another person. So I wouldn't include stripping, um, or pornography in sex work. That being said, I think we should still talk about stripping and pornography. I just, when I say sex work, I don't want the audience to think that I'm talking about pornography or um stripping or something like that. I will just say, you know, um, pornography, right? I'll, I'll make that difference there. When it comes to, you know, sugar babies, um, You know, rich boyfriends, stuff like that. I also wouldn't consider that sex work. Again, just because we have to create some kind of line here. Um, YOU could arguably say that sugar babies are sex work sometimes in certain cases, and other times not. I don't know, that's a fuzzy line. But again, I just think since we have a word for it, which is, you know, sugar daddy, sugar baby relationship, we should just call it what it is, which is that, you know, if you want to think that it's sex work, that's your own opinion, but for the sake of conversation and clarity, we should probably just say the words that they are, right?

10:08 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but, but when it comes to pornography specifically, I mean, why is it that you do not tend to consider it sex work, because the act of sex is present there, right?

10:20 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. I actually thought of it as you're saying that. I was like, well, actually, um, you could counter that. I mean, I think it's mainly just because calling it pornography makes more sense than calling it sex work. It has a, it has a word for it already, so why not use the word that it's called so that people can tell the difference. There's also the viewing aspect of it. The purpose of pornography is for other people to view it. It's not actually an individual, like trying to pay for an individual sexual experience. In addition, pornography, at least in America, involves the First Amendment. Sex work does not. So if I were to call pornography sex work, it would get confusing because the First Amendment gets pulled in there. You got free speech. And so I think for the sake of like the concept of free speech in the First Amendment, at least in America, it makes more sense to separate the two.

11:04 Ricardo Lopes: Right, I mean, it's interesting at a certain point you mentioned there that people sometimes might argue that, oh, OK, a sugar, sugar daddy, sugar baby relationship also counts as sex worker for example, if a wife stays at home and she's supported financially by her husband and she doesn't really love him anymore and just has sex with him because, I mean, to keep the relationship going, maybe. That would also count as sex work. I mean, I'm just mentioning that not because I think I agree that that's sex work, but just because sometimes and because of conversations I've had with my sex worker friends, sometimes just as a matter of joking a little bit, they bring up the fact that, oh, OK, so people who are against sex work want to condemn us for having sex for money, but Then there are women out there who are married, but they're basically having sex with their husbands for money. So you know, yeah, no,

12:10 Carolyn Kraft: I've heard that. I've heard that argument as well. That argument was brought up in my undergrad class. People talked about it very often. So, and, and again, I, I brought that up with Keza. So it's, um, it's definitely something people talk about. So it's worth knowing, or or it's, it's worth discussing whether we want to consider that sex work or not and talk about that kind of gray area, the, the sliding spectrum that we're on here, you know.

12:30 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I mean, of course if we were to simplify things here we would say that the two main approaches to sex work is on the one hand being against sex work and on the other hand being in favor of sex work or even if not really in favor at least defending sex work or sex workers or. Claim, claiming that we should allow sex work to to exist, that it's not unethical, that it's ethical. So, but uh I mean, I mean in your explorations there, what would you say or what are the main approaches or position that the positions that you, uh, you've come across?

13:16 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, well, I guess it depends on what kind of, like, where, what, how you want to come at it, right? So you have like the basic decriminalization, criminalization, legalization, right? So from the legal standpoint, you have those three positions. You could add Nordic model in there on decrim because it's like a, it's like a hybrid

13:32 Ricardo Lopes: almost. It's, it's partial criminalization, right?

13:35 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, it's, it's partial. So you, you have that, right? And then, OK, if you want to talk about the feminist. Perspectives. You have the radical feminist abolitionists, and then you have the kind of liberal feminist slash sex worker right position, right? And so the radical feminist abolitionists, they argue that prostitution or sex work is a form of institutionalized male dominance, no matter what you do. And the very transaction of sex work is in and of itself a harm, no matter how much legal protection you have in there or labor regulation. And it's because consenting to sex work is the, is essentially consenting to a system of male dominance, and it's produced by male dominance, right? So then on the other side, the sex worker rights position, the liberal feminists, that has to do with kind of like, Bodily autonomy, the government acting in a paternal sense, telling women that they can or can't do something because it is or is not good for them. Uh, YOU know, why is sex work any different from any other kind of work, right? Like, I mean, OK, we can't really compare. I mean, you could try to compare it to just, you know, being an accountant or something. But most comparisons are like, OK, well, what about being a coal miner, right? That is a very, um, pain, like very physically exhausting, very dangerous job. Why is that OK, but sex workers is not, or a therapist, or a massage therapist, right? Um, AND so, and then obviously you get support from sex workers themselves. So I would say that those are two camps on the more feminist side, but then you just have like the everyday people who don't really label themselves, and it's just like kind of what you said, for or against it, right? Some people are for it, some people are against it. Their reasoning might be related to religion, bodily taunt, like whatever their reasoning, but then you have that, those two camps.

15:18 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there, there's many things there that we can unpack, but uh just to say that in terms of feminism, yeah, I'm very well familiar with the different, uh, the two main camps within feminism. I mean, we, you tend to have the radical feminism. WHO position themselves against sex work and then as you said, the liberal feminists, even though there are some also Marxist slash socialist feminists who present themselves position themselves in favor of sex work as well, and I mean it's interesting because. I mean, there are some arguments there, maybe we can get into some of them later, but particularly, for example, I was thinking about when the radical feminists or the sex negative feminists, if you want to use that term, sometimes people use that as well, when they claim that, uh, OK, the, the real issue there is. The way that you're selling your body to a particular for a particular person to make use of it, but I mean, again, the sex positive feminists and sex workers who have a positive view of sex work, they say, yeah, OK, fine, but you also sell your body for labor to your. Boss or whatever if you work in construction, if you work in agriculture, if you work different kinds of physical jobs, physical labor, and I mean we can also argue that people who do intellectual labor also sell their brain for labor. So and I mean at the end of the day it seems like really what Makes a difference for sex negative feminists. It's not really selling the body. It's more like the sexual aspect of it because they don't seem to have the same reaction when it comes to even, I don't know, people literally breaking their back working in construction or agriculture.

17:33 Carolyn Kraft: Well, yeah, I think, I think it definitely, you can't really separate it from the sex aspect of it. And I've thought about this because the thing is, is, and, and I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna, you know, pause the argument for the, the radical feminist abolitionists is, and just those who are against legalizing sex work or decriminalizing it in general, but there is an aspect of sex that is very vulnerable. And intimate. And I think it's, it's argued that it's different than if you were to break your back while doing construction or something like that. And then you layer on top of that, the power dynamics between men and women, whether that's like, in reality, which is that men are stronger than women on average, or it's a cultural thing, it's created by the culture, it's that that that men are in a position of power because the culture, the patriarchy has put It that way. You, once you start layering those things, it complicates the situation and differentiates it from, you know, a coal miner or a construction worker or something like that. I also think the fact that sex creates life is another aspect of it that differentiates it. And I've thought about this because I know a lot, not a lot, maybe not every one of them, but um Keza, at least, who I interviewed, she's also against surrogacy. Um, AND she thinks that's, and I, I'm not, I'm not speaking for her on this one because I haven't, um, jumped into her opinion on surrogacy. I don't ask her about it in my interview with her or anything like that, but surrogacy is another situation. I think this is probably more related to the commodification of the female body, right? And essentially using it as like an incubator for a baby that then is taken away from that woman and given to somebody else. There is a Uh, a level of intimacy that I guess we cannot replicate in other systems of labor. Um, AND so I do see that argument there, and I think it's an interesting one to explore.

19:22 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but another thing that we have to keep in mind, and this is something I've learned by of course talking mostly with sex workers themselves, but also again reading the Gerald Mosley book. One interesting aspect here and that many times people who position themselves against sex work do not consider is that There's, um, I mean, a lot, there's many, many times where basically the clients are paying a sex worker, but they don't a sex worker, but they don't have sex with them. I mean they're, they're there just to talk, just to cuddle, just to, I don't know, open themselves up about their problem, the problems that they're having and stuff like that, and sometimes they even end up developing a sort of almost a friendship and and sometimes actual friendship with sex workers. So I mean the thing is, the thing I'm trying to raise here or the aspect I'm trying to raise here is that what we think of as being sex work, I mean someone paying money to another person to have an intimate moment with them does not necessarily Involves sex actually.

20:44 Carolyn Kraft: YEAH, it's kind of interesting because when you, when you start talking about it like that, it's like, well, that's like a therapist, right? Like, I mean, we go to therapist for an hour and we create like kind of a personal relationship with them and we talk to them and of course they have, they have the credentials to actually help us with our, you know, with whatever is going on in our mind, our mental health, but it is very similar, um, or you could add a massage therapist in there. I mean, that's a very intimate experience, right? So, um, Yeah, it's, it's really, again, it comes back to that kind of gradient. I think the big thing is the sex aspect of it, right? Like, is there a, it's, I would say that's probably the big point is the sex, the moment that sex occurs, not necessarily, but again, it's like, OK, well, like, What about cuddling? Like, I mean, I'm sure at least one of them is getting aroused while they're cuddling, right? So, I mean, is that like, is that OK? But I mean, I'm sure that happens when people are getting massages too from massage therapists. I don't know. So it's like how are we really gonna sit here and like, like um um regulate all of these things, right? And but that, but that, but that is the issue with just a Regulation and laws in general is that I think, and this is applicable across the board to a lot of different topics is people are trying to find the perfect solution, right? But at the end of the day, laws are either going to overinclude or underinclude people, no matter what, or situations, right? So what we should be aiming for is the best version given the information we have at hand, right? That's a whole separate conversation because then what's the best and what's the negative consequence and what's an externality that we're, how are we going to weigh all these things, right? But yeah, I mean, when we get into the nitty gritty, no law or lack of law is going to cover every single situation. So what we should be focusing on is how we are going to weigh the pros and the cons and which avenue we want to take after that. But that's where everyone disagrees, right?

22:34 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, yeah, and you're, you're a lawyer, right, so you have more knowledge about this than I am, but I mean, it seems to me that people many times are sort of aiming at perfect law, perfectly written, that includes all single except possible exception out there and all of that, but that simply isn't our. We write or create or vote laws, right? I mean, it's basically many times it's a matter of just putting out there to start with an imperfect law and then over time evaluating how it actually works in the real world and the kinds of positive and negative consequences that it ends up having and then tweaking it over time. Of course, the way we evaluate the negative or the positive consequences boils down to also people's own personal values, right? I mean, because I mean one person can consider a particular kind of consequence, a negative consequence. Another person can consider it neutral or a positive consequence. So at the end of the day we're also debating morals here.

23:55 Carolyn Kraft: Mhm. Yeah, exactly. It is, it's a, it's a, that's why I like talking about, that's why I talked about it. It's very complicated once you really get into it, and it's worth having these conversations because, like I said, it does apply to other things, like if you want to talk about surrogacy, like, should surrogacy be legal or not? Why or why not? Should we regulate these things, right? Like, at what point is the bodily autonomy argument, and it, and I think surrogacy is actually, and I don't want to like, go off on a tangent, but surrogacy is a really Interesting one because it involves another human, which is the baby that comes out, right? So that like, these topics are worth having conversations on. And I write, I wrote an article about this on my sub stack, actually, I was, it's not specific to surrogacy or sex work or anything like that. But I essentially talk about like, people have to be very careful when, um, you know, proposing laws, because a lot of people, it's very similar to what we said, the overinclusivity, underinclusivity, how it's going to apply in the future. A lot of people, when they support a law, they support it because the politician they like wants that law to pass. But then I'm like, well, what if the politician you dislike employed that law? Would you still support that law? Right? That's why it's like, OK, once laws are on the, and it's much easier to get a law in than get rid of it. Like, everyone's always talking about all politicians campaign on passing laws. They don't campaign on necessarily getting rid of laws. I mean, some do, but not many. It's not nearly as popular, right? And so, It's like, let's just do more laws and more laws and more laws. And it's like, OK, at some point, like, we have overregulation at this point, and maybe we should have a conversation about whether we have too many laws on the books. And also, again, if the politician you hate employs the law that you support, how does that, how is that used against you, right, in your group of people or whoever you're supporting? I think these are conversations that need to be had. So yeah, I wrote an article about that because I think it's like something that that people seem to forget about.

25:45 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, by the way, particularly feminists and sociologists as well, and of course some sociologists are also feminists themselves, talk about emotional and sexual labor, labor, not only, I mean physical labor or intellectual labor or just. Uh, THEY just, or, or like people usually do, they just use the term labor without distinguishing between different kinds of labor. I mean, do you think that it makes sense in this particular case to also, uh, talk about emotional and sexual labor? I mean, sex, the sexual bit is more or less obvious, right? But The emotional labor aspect to it has to do with, I mean, things that I've mentioned before, like the the therapeutic aspect of it that it can have the companionship aspect of it. I mean, do you think that it makes sense to talk about these different kinds of labor within sex work?

26:46 Carolyn Kraft: I mean, I would say anything's worth a conversation, right? Um, SO if people think that emotional labor should be part of the conversation, it's worth talking about. I haven't done a ton of research on the emotional labor argument of sex work, to be completely honest. Um, WHEN I think of emotional labor, I think of like every many, many jobs, like, OK, you're a neurosurgeon. That's a lot of. Emotional Labor, actually, you know, like, you're a nurse, that's a lot of emotional labor. You work in an elderly folks' home. You are a psychologist. There is always emotional labor involved in every job. So, to me, I'm just like, yeah, we can have a conversation. And again, I would like to talk to sex workers about that one specifically, because emotional labor, I think is something that is like, That is a very personal perspective that I would really like to hear about, cause I can't really guess what people emotionally feel when they're involved in sex work. Like that's almost a level above that, right? Like there aren't really statistics about it. I can look at data and statistics about like sex work and, you know, um, sex trafficking and all of that kind of stuff. I don't have any data about like the emotional labor involved in sex work, so.

27:52 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, no, I mean, I don't have data either. It's just my, the conversations I've had with sex workers and some other, I don't know, testimonials that I read and heard, but I mean there are different kinds of experience, and I mean I guess that that's an important point also to put out there in this conversation that wherever kind of topics we explore here today in regards to sex work, there's always people out there. Sex workers who have negative experiences and others that have positive experiences, others that others that are more or less in the middle, more or less neutral, but I mean, I've heard many different kinds of things when it comes to emotional labor in sex work. I mean, for example, sex workers who I know personally that don't really like sex work is more of a, OK, so I don't have really good alternatives and I need to make it to earn this money. I mean, it were in the living that sometimes they don't really like having sex with strangers, so to speak, and then during the act they sort of dissociate mentally, you know, they're, they're like, they try to not be there during the act, which sometimes might come out as, uh, I mean sometimes the clients might notice that, oh, OK, she's, she's not engaged or something like that and they. Like that, but I mean there are others, and I, I, and this bit here, it gets into also a little bit of the psychology of it because there are sex workers out there, uh, escorts and porn stars, which are the ones I'm more familiar with than the ones I actually have personal contact with, where, for example, if they score high on sociosexuality, sociosexuality is a Psychological trait where people basically are interested in having sex with a a big number of people with no strings attached. I mean they don't really get very emotionally attached with the people they have sex with and they like sexual variety and things like that. And, and also, I mean in the particular case of porn stars, some of them. EXHIBITIONISTS, so they also feel pleasure just thinking about other people watching them having sex. So, I mean the the emotional labor aspect, I guess that it's always there, but for some, for some people it's like positive emotional labor if you will, and for others it's really like um. Negative emotional labor and it really feels like labor, you know.

30:49 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, so, OK, I, I think I might have misunderstood emotional labor a little bit. Um, SO thanks for expanding on that. That was helpful. Again, I haven't, again, I have not done a ton of research on the emotional labor side of it, but, you know, when you bring in psychology, the psychological impact of sex work on the individual sex workers, that is very interesting, and I think I definitely think that's worth a conversation. Um, AND it's probably something that not a lot of people do talk about. It's hard again, because you don't have the data, you don't have the statistics per se, but you do have some biological aspects to it. Like you said, you have some individuals who, if, uh, you know, they have the proclivity of having sex with a lot of different sexual partners, but then they don't necessarily connect with people on an individual level. I think that's really interesting. Is that something that someone is born with? Is that something that is that nurture in nature, right? Is it something that can increase, um, when they are involved in sex work or pornography? So is that a negative externality depending on how they view it, right? If they don't care, then it's not negative. But is it a negative externality? Would we see it as negative? Um, AND then does that affect this, the, the society more broadly as a result? Um, SO those are definitely things to consider.

31:57 Ricardo Lopes: No, sure, sure, I mean, the, the, the things I know, of course it's mostly anecdotal from the conversations I've had with sex workers, but some of them say that from a very early age, from the very moment they were exposed to sex in some form or another, even not necessarily pornography, because some of them, I mean, Conversations I've had on the show are have been with people that were born even in the 50s, 60s, 70s, so even before porn, you could get porn on VHS or DVD and even less so on the internet because there was no internet at all. So when they were first exposed to sex, it was not through pornography or anything like that. They say that they were. From very early on, very interested and very curious about sex, and then they started exploring it themselves, and then they found out that they just liked, I don't know, things like exploring other people's bodies and things like that, and they are extremely open to the sex. They don't moralize it at all, and then I mean, there's that, and then there's people who told me that basically they didn't really know that they could, could enjoy sex that much. It was only after they were in the porn industry that they opened themselves up a little bit more to sex, and they found out that really they, they were missing on something. And I mean, I'm not sure. Or if that means that they became over time more sociosexual or if they were already sociosexual and it's only when they went through those experiences that they found out that they actually were sociosexual because sometimes these things are also repressed in society, right? So, I mean, but there's different kinds of experiences out there.

33:58 Carolyn Kraft: Mhm. Yeah. And see, the thing, I think that should be a big part of this conversation, since we're talking about like, is it worth talking about this or that is definitely individual experience is important. But I also think a large aspect of it is looking at things, zooming out a little bit and looking at whether there is a negative or positive or neutral societal impact of legalizing the Criminalizing or criminalizing it, right? Like, how does this affect people more generally? I think that's another, a big part of the conversation because I, I, it's when, when you talk to individuals, like I said, very important. I've heard stories on either side, right? Like I had to, we had two individuals who came again, they were, they were introduced to sex trafficking at a young age, but while there. While they were there, they interacted with individuals who were involved in sex work on the more like decriminalized, legalized side, and they are very involved in sex trafficking now and that they're combating it. And so they work with people in that realm. And so in their opinion, they were actually very against it, uh, which was a very interesting, and they actually have very interesting opinions. Um. And it's worth taking that into consideration. But then, yeah, like, let's, another step is, OK, so how does this affect the general, in, in general, how does it affect society? Um, SO, I think it's another conversation we had.

35:15 Ricardo Lopes: No, OK, it's OK, so let's get into that topic then. I mean, the different ways that people claim it can affect society have to do with, of course, how it can affect the sex workers themselves and more broadly how it can affect the consumers. I mean, if we're, if we're including porn and things like Only Fans here, I mean the, the way that it can. Affect societies is much broader because it's not like, OK, so if you pay for sex and you have direct intimate access to a woman, for example, I mean it's only one person at least at the time that is affected by sex work, but if we're talking about pornography that you can find on the internet, it can potentially affect millions or billions of people. VERY rapidly, right? So I mean there's also the impact on people talk about the impact on men particularly because I, I know that the statistics have been changing a little bit over the past 10 years or so. The number of women who have watched pornography has increased 50%. So, uh, I mean the, the gender gap there is decreasing, but still it's a major. It's still a majority of men that consume pornography, and then people also talk about things like how it can affect relationships, romantic relationships, particularly. Sometimes they also talk about how it can affect children. So I mean, what are the, among all of those ways that people claim it can affect society, which are the ones that you think are the most worth exploring?

37:02 Carolyn Kraft: Uh, WELL, I think a big one is how it affects sex trafficking. That, that, um, connection or alleged connection is, I think, incredibly important because when you dive into the statistics, you can find support on either side, right? And that's where it gets really frustrating on my end because I really want to find an answer to these questions. And then I'm looking into it and it's like, yeah, you find um in you, you find statistics and data and research that says that when you decriminalize sex work, Or when you legalize it, you do get an increase in sex trafficking. And one of the theories as to why that happens is because the demand is always going to be greater than the supply, because it is harder to find women who want to be involved in sex work, than it is to find men who want to have sex with women and pay for it, right? And so what happens is when this market happens, and that supply or the demand increases, the supply has to meet that demand, and the supply happens with sex trafficking. Um, OR some kind of coercion, right, involved. And that I, I always found that to be a very interesting, um, you know, theory and something to really consider. Then on the other side though, you do have statistics that say that it makes it and, and theories that say that it makes it easier to determine who's being sex trafficked and not being sex trafficked when you legalize it, because you have that difference. Right. And individuals who are, who are consensually participating in sex work, they feel comfortable going to police and saying, hey, this man tried to assault me. And, and they're protected by the police. When it's, when it's illegal, they're not protected by the police. They are a criminal as well. So not only are they a victim, they're also a criminal. And that puts them in a very hard position, which is

38:42 Ricardo Lopes: I was actually I was actually going to say, sorry for interrupting you, but I was actually going to say, do you think that there's a possibility that at least a percentage of those cases where, as you said, when where sex work is legalized or decriminalized, we see sex trafficking going up, do you think that at least The percentage of those cases of sex trafficking could be simply that where it's legalized or decriminalized, people feel, feel more at ease going to the police or to other kinds of authorities and really denounce what's happening in, uh, I mean, vis a vis, for example. PLACES where it's criminalized and they don't feel at ease doing that and so what could happen is that in places where it's decriminalized or legalized, you would see sex trafficking cases of sex trafficking going up because police are more aware of that. But in places where it's criminalized, people just don't go to the police because they don't want to get into trouble themselves. I mean, do you think that's a possibility?

40:01 Carolyn Kraft: For, for sure. I think it's possible that they're growing up at the same time, right? And that's why this is so hard to do is because there's so many variables. It's like, how are you actually supposed to figure this out? Definitely think that it's a possibility it's actually probably happening, that the number of recorded sex trafficking victims goes up because it can be recorded because people have the, the freedom to safely approach police officers or go to, um, you know, organizations that are There to help them and not be criminalized and thrown in jail or fined, right? For sure. But I also do think that it could go up because of like the theory I mentioned, the supply and demand aspect of it, and it might make it easier since it's legal to kind of skirt the line as to what exactly sex trafficking is and isn't, um, instead of it just being completely illegal across the board, right? It makes it a little easier for them. So I think, I think it could, what it probably is, is a combination of both, um, and trying to figure out which it is, or which is more or less. That's a hard one to do. That's really hard to do, and I think we need those answers.

41:04 Ricardo Lopes: But I think there's also a discussion to be had here, and we can have it if you want as to how people define sex trafficking, because I think, I think that one position that we, you can hear very frequently out there in these kinds of debates comes from people who are Against sex work and they make claims like, oh, OK, so all sex work is sex trafficking because no woman out there, of course we also have to keep in mind that there are male sex workers, but we're focusing on the women here because they represent the bulk of sex workers. So but No woman out there would willingly, freely, autonomously decide to become a sex worker. They are necessarily coerced into it, and so if they are coerced, it is nonconsensual. If it's nonconsensual, then it's always sex trafficking. But I think that's actually very, I mean, Even putting the morality aspect of it aside, if just from a pure intellectual perspective, it seems very intellectually dishonest because we're just assuming then that an entire economic activity is illegal, it is done nonconsensually because I mean, in this case, I guess people don't like it and equating it to sex trafficking and Sex work is not always sex trafficking.

42:46 Carolyn Kraft: Mhm, FOR sure. And you know, I think that is a common argument used when it's used for argument's sake. And I'll, I'll try to explain that, like, so for example, I was looking into something that really surprised me when, when I was, I was much younger, I was like in my early twenties, and it's when I give my presentation on sex work to my nonprofit organization. And I found um a good number of negative reviews about the legalization of sex work in counties in Nevada, which I didn't, I just didn't expect that that was going to be the case. So I did some more research on it more recently, actually in preparation for this, and I just wanted to like read a little bit more, and I came across a website that was is against the legalization of sex work in counties in Nevada, and it talks about how, you know, there is a lot of intersection of legal sex work and sex trafficking because a lot of women in the legal brothels who are sex workers legally. HAVE reported feeling coerced. And so that's essentially exactly what you're saying here is that there is a coercion element to it. And trying to figure out whether that's considered sex work or sex trafficking is really hard, especially because coercion exists outside of sex work as well. Like, I mean, we're kind of all coerced to work, right? We're trying to stay alive. So it's, I mean, like, we're doing it for money. Um, SO that's, so. That argument is definitely made. But when you look at statistics, the question is, how are they recording it, right? Are they recording sex trafficking based on the, the criminal aspect of it, the legal definition? Is it that they are truly police officers or Detectives or whoever is in charge of this, the government looking into this, because in that case, it's like, well, it's not really argument's sake, right? They're not just like, hopefully, they're not just saying, oh, this is all sex trafficking because no sex work can ever be consensual because of this theory. When we look at it like that, I would like to believe that the statistics are a little more um trustworthy because they're based on a more a legal definition, not necessarily a theory. That being said, I don't know if that's necessarily the case, which is why when you look at these studies, you have to figure out the actual methodology of how they're determining whether something is sex trafficking or sex work, right? So.

44:53 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but I think that's one of the reasons why in these kind of conversations it's almost impossible to avoid the psychological aspect of things, because if you want to argue that all women who participate in sex work are being sexually trafficked then or are victims of. Sex trafficking, you're making also a claim about their internal psychological state, right, because you're assuming that they don't want to be there. They were forced into being there and you're also claiming, even though indirectly, that every sex worker out there. Who says explicitly that no, they're doing that voluntarily, they're doing that out of their own free will. They are, they made their own choice. They're, they're calling them liars basically because

45:57 Carolyn Kraft: or just being paternalistic. They're saying they're essentially saying like you don't know, like you don't actually know, you're being. But I mean, those arguments are made everywhere for a lot of different things is essentially like you're just, you know, internalized misogyny or stuff like that, which is just like, you might think you know what you know, but you don't actually know. I know what you know, and I'm, you know, that's a very common one, but I agree, like that's why the psychology does need to be discussed. But the the psychology needs to be discussed because I think That if we actually want a system where women are able to make educated decisions as to what they want to do with their bodies or not, they need to be educated on the potential psychological ramifications of what they're doing or not doing. And I think at this point, because both sides are trying to argue that the other side is right or wrong, and they're so focused on that, that they're essentially imputing a belief. System on, on each other, right? You have a lot of sex workers that come out in support of sex work saying, I want to do it. Therefore, whatever you're saying is wrong. And, you know, this exists, right? And then you have the other side that's like, well, there's no way that you actually want to believe it because, or you actually want sex work because you're operating within a patriarchal society that has made you believe that. That is what you want, but you don't actually want it. And so it's like, OK, so now you're just telling each other what the other person wants or doesn't want, and there is a little asymmetry there, and I don't want to lose that. I think that the people who are arguing against sex work are a little more trying to impute a belief system on the other, but that again is why I'm like, well, the bigger picture should be like, we need to actually look at the psychological impact. And then not impute the potential feelings that somebody has, but rather educate the possibility of this so that individuals can make their own choices. And then another step would be to look at the larger, broader implications of all of this, rather than like whether a single individual does or does not like something at any given time. And that's why I like if we want to go back to pornography, so when I was looking at this Nevada website or this website about Nevada legalization, It did bring up a very interesting point that I think is worth having a conversation about, because it essentially talks about how with the increase in normalization of pornography and the increase of consumption of pornography, we have had an increase of interest in violent pornographic material, and that sex workers have reported experiencing an increase in violence against them because as individuals watch this porn and they get more desensitized, they then want to replicate those actions against the sex workers. That's, that's a negative externality. That I think it is worth having a conversation about. And it's something that we should be able to talk about without necessarily thinking that we're any, we're conceding any given point, because this is something that I've noticed in any debate, is that no, no one wants to admit that there might be a flaw in their belief, because to concede anything is almost like to give the other side the, the advantage in a debate, right? And so you're just like, no, this is not the case. And it's like, OK, well, in an actual Conversation where we're trying to figure out how to better society and better individual lives and figure out if we want to legalize it or not, we have to talk about the negatives and positives of both sides so that we can properly weigh what we want to do. But that's very dangerous when things become political and everyone's just, no one's willing to actually concede any point that the other side might be correct, right?

49:16 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. No, I mean, just two quick points, and then let's talk a little bit more about because you've already Mentioned there as well ways by which pornography or sex work more generally can affect society, but I mean the two points I wanted to make is when it comes to the asymmetry you mentioned there, when it comes to one side or the other trying to impose their values on the opposite side, I think that the asymmetry goes a little bit further than what you said in the sense that, OK, so people who are against sex work. Generally speaking, are all trying to eliminate sex work, to abolish sex work, ban sex work. I mean, to get rid of sex work, ideally to completely get rid of it, but sex workers are people who defend sex work. I mean, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with anyone who said that. Sex work, for example, is OK for everyone that anyone should go into sex work. They admit or recognize that there are some, or some of its aspects can have a negative impact on people. They refer to different things like, for example, if you don't have the right kind of personality to really Feel well with having sex with uh different people and mainly strangers, and they also mention, for example, uh, OK, so in the long term, you have to keep in mind that, for example, if you are a porn star, that your image will be there on the internet for the rest of your life and the kind of negative consequences that that might have. And, OK, so they tend to recognize some of what might potentially be negative about sex work, and they all of them, or at least all the ones that I've heard, say that no, sex work is not for everyone and also in terms of the consumers, they have to have a healthy relationship to sex work, that for example, They shouldn't treat pornography as real sex because it's not real sex. They also admit that. And the other thing, the other point I was going to make is, yeah, I, I completely grant you the fact that people on either side are looking at things from their specific vantage points because of course, even though I'm friends with sex. Workers, I'm willing to admit that probably some of them, if not all of them, also tend to develop these positions favorable towards sex work because they're, um, it's their living. I mean, it's the way they're making their living, it's how they earn the money, so I mean it's just natural that they would attend toward that and. On the other end of the spectrum, I mean, people who are against sex work are the ones who tend to have particular kinds of beliefs surrounding sex, gender roles. They tend to moralize different aspects of sex and all of that. So I, I mean those are just two points I wanted to make. But then when it comes to the negative impacts, I mean for me some of the claims made by People who say that sex work has or can have a negative impact on society, at least some of those claims are a bit shaky scientifically speaking, because for example, when they claim that sex work can cause sexual violence or sex crimes. I mean, it's, it's real, that the foundation for that is extremely shaky. I've, I've had conversations on the show with psychologists, sociologists, neuroscientists who study those kinds of topics, and And for the longest time we've, we've seen that actually has the consumption of pornography, for example, has gone up, sex-related crimes have been going down, at least from places where we have proper. Data. So I mean, uh, when you say that we need to look at the possible or potential negative impacts that sex work can have on society, is that, are you referring to that type of thing, or, or do you have other specific examples?

54:15 Carolyn Kraft: Well, that's one example, but another, like we talked about would be whether sex trafficking goes up when legal or when legalization or decriminalizing comes up. Um, ANOTHER one would be just the general commodification of the female body or the, the impact of like seeing sex as a commodity, how that might affect the general population. But I do want to point out is, um, you know, I have not talked individually to sociologists or neuroscientists or psychologists on this specific thing when it comes to pornography or anything like that. Um, THAT being said, I do want to point out that there could be a confounding variable in that case, which is that as pornography, um, has increased more, maybe, um, understanding and policing and all of that has also increased in general. Education of consent has increased. And that might be another variable as to why we see, you know, these sex acts decreasing. It's not necessarily that porn increasing is affecting that, but more that there is simultaneously something else going on that is helping kind of combat the, the effect that porn might be having, having on individuals. Also, but, but that's, that's, that comes back to the issue, which is that like, you have This is the issue with like everything, which is why it's so frustrating, like everything, which is you have so many variables, and you have so many different things to look at. It is really hard to find causation on any of this kind of stuff, because it's like, well, you know, again, we have women who have reported, um, you know, an increase in abusive tendency towards them, and they associate that with the increase of pornography. OK, but I'm sure there are other variables as to why that might be the case. You know, you know what I mean, like how are we actually supposed to track all of this stuff? That's a really hard thing to do. And, um, so yeah, I, I also, another thing I found interesting, and you just made me think of it while you're talking about it. Have you looked into how the UK has, um, haven't they made it illegal to have a strangulation or any kind of choking in pornography because of its impact on women? Did that, was that, did that happen?

56:14 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, I haven't followed that closely. I heard about that. Very, in a very vague way, but yeah, possibly that possibly has happened, but I'm not sure. I can't really.

56:28 Carolyn Kraft: I think it would be really interesting to dive into that and see what studies they use to support that law, if they use studies to support that law, and what caused them to do that. I think that's a really interesting legal move that the UK recently did. If it, I'm pretty sure they did do that. And please, anyone in the audience, correct me. If it was like maybe a proposed and it didn't like pass, but pretty sure it passed, um, or something similar to it, because, again, this is why these conversations are so important, because the laws are getting passed, or at least being proposed that affect this kind of stuff. And like, as we continue to move on and tech gets better and policing gets better, but also, we are pushing for more liberalization or less liberalization of certain actions, when you have these conversations.

57:09 Ricardo Lopes: No, of course, and I mean, to be perfectly honest, there are, OK, so when it comes to how porn might affect porn or sex work more generally might affect society, of course, the sex, violence, sexual violence kind of stuff is just one type of claim that people who are against sex work make. There are many different types of claims. And of course I don't think we have time to explore all of them here, but, uh, but, but anyway, there are at least some aspects of people's lives that even in those conversations, so for example, a conversation I had with Dr. Nicole Rosi, she's a neuroscientist who really focuses on sex, pornography, and the effects that pornography has or doesn't have. ON people and one of the things that we talked about in one of our conversations we've had too on the show is where porn can actually have a negative effect on people is, for example, let's say that we're talking about a couple, a heterosexual couple, a man and a woman, and the man really watches a lot of pornography and the woman. DOESN'T really or watches very little, so the thing is that the discrepancy there might have a negative impact on the relationship because I mean the woman might start thinking, oh, why is it that he's watching so much porn. Porn. Why does he need to watch porn so regularly or all the time? I mean, am I not enough? And then she might start comparing herself to the porn performers and think that, OK, she's maybe she's not sexy enough or beautiful enough or perhaps she's not as Uh, or good and bad as they are, stuff like that. So yeah, pornography can for sure in certain circumstances have a negative impact on people, and that's one example.

59:23 Carolyn Kraft: Well, and I have a question, is the neurologist. Did you say woman, man? What's her name?

59:28 Ricardo Lopes: Her name is a, she's a woman. Nicole, Nicole Prosi.

59:33 Carolyn Kraft: Did she study why a man would want to watch pornography while he's in a committed relationship to a woman who he could have sex with?

59:42 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, there, there are at least a bunch of reasons. I mean, I'm not sure if I will be able to remember all of them, but one reason would be that, OK, so people have this idea that, for example, people who watch a lot of porn are just, I don't know, hopeless people who can't really have access to sexual partners and things like that, but actually, It tends to be the case that people who watch more porn, and this is true for both men and women, are people who have a higher sex drive. They are more interested in sex, and so they watch more porn, but they also tend to have more sex sometimes with even more than one person. And so what happens when they are in a relationship is that they still watch porn, not because they don't like their partner, their partner is not good enough, or their partner does not satisfy their needs. It's just that. I mean that the uh that they still, even though they have lots of sex, they, because their sex drive is so high, they still feel the need to watch porn, and many times it has nothing at all or very little to do with their partner or them being tired of their partner or their partner not being good enough in bed or. Uh, SOMETHING like that, so it's not necessarily a case of, uh, so some people, uh, look at it as a case of, uh, betrayal or cheating or something like that. Oh, you're watching porn, you're not having sex with me or you don't have want to have sex with me anymore, or you're interested in those kinds of women and not in me, something like that. But no, that's not necessarily the case,

1:01:44 Carolyn Kraft: so. Yeah, I mean, I guess I just, again, I have not looked into the studies a ton on this, but I, I would be very curious to see as to why, like, I'm going to make the guess that the only reason why people watch porn is not because they have higher sex drive than their partner. I'm just saying that's not the only reason. So I'm just curious as to what other reasons are impacting them and why some people would choose to do it, why they would not, because that would make me believe that there is a psychological connection. PORN usage or porn watching and not. And if that is the case, how else might that that affect them? And that that's a causality thing that's like a chicken before the egg kind of thing, like, are they watching, are they wanting to watch porn because of something else, or is porn wanting them making want to watch more? Is there any, what is that cycle there? And then in turn, whether that's going to affect the uh. Woman, the woman in that case, not just because she like, feels offended or she's has personal issues with it, but whether it actually is going to affect like the sex later on or something, because then that would, that would apply to whether it's affecting sex workers or not. I just think that that's something that I need to look into a little bit more, and I'm very curious about.

1:02:58 Ricardo Lopes: No, no, no, that's perfectly fair, and I think that another example where porn can actually affect people's sexual lives has to do with And this seems to me very clear, of course, again. It's very hard to establish a real causal connection there, a causal relationship, but, um, I mean, it's just the case that over the past few years, I'm not sure if it's been a decade or a decade and a half or more than that, but, uh, I remember reading data from the UK and younger people, uh, have been increasingly, particularly, particularly men have been asking increasingly. FOR their female partners to have anal sex and stuff like that, and there's a um I I I mean, I think it's safe to say that some of that has been influenced by pornography and by people watching pornography. I mean there are certain, I don't know, kinks or sexual acts where people have been influenced by pornography and another way that have just come to my mind when. In regards to how porno or pornography consumption might

1:04:12 Carolyn Kraft: erectile dysfunction is also another way like they have found connections between increased porn use and erectile dysfunction that does affect that, I mean. This is, I'm not a doctor here, but I do think it has a psychological effect then, or performance anxiety is another one. That's another aspect of it. I've I've read studies about that. So, it, it is, it is. And then, you know, how does that apply to sex work and how does it apply to the commodification of the body? This is why I think, and, and I actually have a question for you. I think this is a good question. We sit here and we're talking about like, OK, well, there's this variable and this variable, and like we can't really, we can, we can see potential correlation, we can't really create causation, and what do you think should determine whether sex work should be legal or not? Like, what do you think that we should be looking at? Because it seems like looking at the studies is kind of hard, right? So is there, but then you say morality, OK, where does morality come from? But how are we supposed to be doing this?

1:05:08 Ricardo Lopes: OK, so those are two different sets of questions. I mean, when, when it comes to what we should be looking at, I mean, for me personally, but, but again, it's when we have these kinds of questions, it's really, really hard to separate one's own personal values from how we evaluate the impact of things in society, right, because I mean, But if someone really showed me convincing evidence that, OK, so pornography, for example, or sex or sex work escorting really does deeply affect people's ability to form stable relationships. It really does have a negative impact on children's sexual development. Uh, IT has an impact on, for example, increased rates of sexual dysfunction, erectile dysfunction, uh, I mean, all of those kinds of things. If people showed me convincing evidence of that, OK, I would be. Open to considering perhaps imposing some limitations on sex work, what those limitations would be, I mean, I would have to discuss that with people. I'm, I'm not sure when it comes to the morality aspect of it, I mean, because I'm very much into psychology and social science, I mean, I'm just. Where that people's morals come from different places. I mean, partly it can be genetics, partly it can be people's own personal experiences, but for me, I mean, whether it's genetics, whether it's personal experiences, whether it's nature or nurture. I mean, it's, it's really complicated for me to position myself. If those negative consequences for society are not there, it's really hard for me to position myself on the side of people who are against sex work because it's like, oh, OK, so now what you're doing is that you don't really like sex work because of your morality. It can be religious or not, it doesn't matter because you have a morally negative view of sex work. You're positioning yourself against it, and now you want to prohibit or prevent people from engaging in it. I mean, if there's really no good evidence of those negative consequences, I mean, are you really going to curb other people's freedom just on that basis, and then. Uh, YOU also have, if you're going on morals, then you also have to consider the other end of the spectrum. I mean, uh, there are people who are perfectly fine with sex work for some of the reasons I mentioned earlier. They might score high on sociosexuality, they might just have a high sex drive, they might be very open to experience, I don't know, many different kinds of traits like that, and so, And as, and, and if again, if those negative consequences are not there and so if they are not in any significant way harming other people, I mean, it's just hard for me to to really take the anti-sex work position very seriously, either morally or even less so legally.

1:08:54 Carolyn Kraft: Mhm, YEAH, I get what you're saying, yeah, I think. And then this is, we've been talking about this a lot, we kind of come back to it is like, I'm, I again, we need to have a better understanding of the potential negative externalities or lack thereof, in order to discuss whether sex work should be legal or not. I, it's just really hard because, you know, I had another podcaster who I'm on. Show every quarter. And he um proposed talking about, like, how the modern, like the younger generation, like Gen Z, um, millennial, and I guess below Gen Z now, uh, how they're, they're struggling. There's a lot of a more negative viewpoint as to our future. And there's a lot of um struggles in the dating world and a lack of commitment and people and all these problems, and I'm just like, yeah, like, but what are, what's causing these problems? How are we problems? I mean, maybe some people don't think they're problems, but a lot of people experiencing them do find it a problem because they're trying to find someone and they're like, the dating sucks. Um, BUT it is, it's very interesting how all of these things interact with each other and how they interact and how we can solve these things in the best way possible. Like, how do we solve it? I just, it's, it is, it is hard. And then when you bring up the morality aspect of it, it's like, yeah, OK, so what's the baseline morality here? What morality are we going to base off of? Cause you said, you said some people morally say it is OK. Some people morally say it's not OK. So how are we going to choose which moral baseline we're going to use? Both are arguing from a moral stance, right? Um, AND that's subjective, in that situation. So yeah, I think, um,

1:10:27 Ricardo Lopes: I mean when it comes to the morality aspect of things, I look at society as more of a sort of dynamic, sort of a dynamical system where people with different interests that stem many times from their different kind of sets of moral beliefs are constantly, I mean, trying to tweak society in ways that favor their own interests and their own moral values, and I mean over time things change. Sometimes they move more in one direction, sometimes they move more on the other direction. So I mean that that's how I look at things. I, I don't. REALLY have a sort of idealized view of morality where it's like, oh, OK, so this is definitely the absolute moral truth and that's where society should move toward. I mean, um. It's like moving. The goalposts are constantly moving and people react also to the circum the circumstances they live in. So that's how I look at a moral, a moral evolution in society and things like that.

1:11:45 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, I mean, and that's a whole separate conversation, but it is a fascinating one because it's like, is morality subjective or is there a benefit to having an objective morality? I actually, I have a short video about this on my Instagram, but I talk about Marquis Dessau. Who, um, he, the word sadism came from him, and he essentially argued like morality is subjective. Since morality is subjective, it does not exist. Therefore, I can do whatever I want. Um, AND if you look at his history, he did whatever he wanted. And, um, it's just fascinating when you, uh, when, when you have a situation where somebody takes something to the most extreme. Which is that that's what it was. It was taking the idea that because morality is subjective and therefore it does not necessarily exist, and there is no universal right or wrong, they took it to the, the extreme next step, and they're like, therefore I can do essentially what I want and I should be able to. Fascinating conversation, but

1:12:40 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, actually, I, I mean, if you, if you don't mind, because just uh let me just take a step back because just a couple of minutes ago you mentioned one thing that people also try to Uh, or linked to sex work and sometimes they also try to link it to feminism that has to do with dating and mating, right? Because I, I, I mean if you're open to it, actually I have a sort of. Working theory which includes several different factors, and none of them has anything to do with sex work or feminism that I think can explain the modern dating and

1:13:25 Carolyn Kraft: mating. I'd love to hear it. I'm curious.

1:13:27 Ricardo Lopes: Oh, OK, so, OK, so my theory starts with this. I mean, I'm going to go through the several different factors, not necessarily in order. It depends on. The sequence I remember them in. So, I mean, so, so first of all, I, I think that it has a lot to do with economic circumstances. So, and particularly in the West, and because that um dating thing that we're talking about a lot nowadays, and most of the data comes from the West, that's why I'm focusing on it. I mean, since the 2008 economic crisis, I mean, basically people's economic prospects, uh, job uh um prospects in the job uh the, the job market and all of that have been really dire, particularly for the younger generations, and again, it's the younger generations mostly complaining about dating. Uh, AND so the, the, the reason why economics affects dating is, so if you don't have a stable income, if you, if your finances are not stable. I mean, it's really hard to really date and mate because what are you going to look forward to? I mean, if you're constantly worried about, oh my God, what if I lose my job tomorrow when jobs are increasing. More precarious and you, you don't have this or that kind of benefit and maybe your income is not really that great, particularly now with escalating inflation and all of that and I mean incomes have not really been keeping up with inflation. So, and uh also, the reason why I mentioned that is, or, uh, there's a very clear example in Japan where in the early 90s they have uh an economic crisis there and before the economic crisis, their lifestyle was like, OK, so I go to a university, wherever kind of degree I feel. I'm going to immediately have access to one of the public companies that they, they have or they used to have in Japan, and I will have a job for life with a stable income, so I'm able, I'm going to be able to marry and to have kids and to raise a family and pay for my bills. And I won't have to worry about ever, uh, I mean, getting fired or losing my job or not having a stable income. But then the economic crisis hit and that's when from the early 90s up till now, marriage rates fell, the dating market has been a mess. There are fewer and fewer young people. Having regular sex or dating and having boyfriends or girlfriends and fertility rate also started to go down precipitously, so I mean, that's just one example, but for me the economic aspect of things really has a huge impact on people's romantic and sexual lives. And then because of economic instability, another thing that that creates is that, oh, OK, so we have, we have, we live in a society where traditional gender roles. Still are still very prevalent. And so, I mean, what happens when, for example, younger men do not go to university as much or do not have access to high, uh, to high incomes and I I I don't know, in career job in, in, in high income jobs and, and stuff like that. I mean, Basically, if you're expecting men to be providers and a one income household, I mean that's just not going to happen. I mean, in the current economy all across the West, that's just not realistic at all unless you are really a rich guy. I mean, that's just not realistic at all. And, and then another aspect is Younger generations, and this is something that people have been really looking at for the past maybe 3 or 4 years. I think that the first time I read about that was in 2024, if I'm not mistaken. I mean, younger generations politically there's been a split. Younger women have been moving more and more toward the left, and younger men have been moving more and more toward the right. I mean, what's behind that, it's very complicated and it would take a huge while to talk about that here. So I'm not going to get into that. Just to say that the fact that younger women and younger men politically are going in different directions, that also really complicates things because something that we You hear a lot nowadays when for example interviewing young women about their dating experiences is things like, oh, I went on a date with a guy, but he was, I don't know, a Trump supporter or he was into manosphere things and he was really right wing and he was deep into his religious values and some and things like that. So women more progressive, men more conservative. I mean that doesn't really work at the end of the day. I mean, I mentioned, uh, if I remember correctly, 33 different aspects there economics, gender roles, and politics. I mean, maybe I'm missing something here, but basically what I'm trying to say here is that I think you can fully explain issues with the current dating environment without. REALLY resorting to sex to explanations based on sex work and or feminism.

1:20:02 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah. Uh, SO, two things I want to say. I, um, I think your point on the economy is a really good one, and I do agree with that. I actually, I wrote an article, or sorry, an article, I wrote a paper in undergrad about how the one-child policy affected China, um, both demographically, but economically as well. And so, a lot of people, you know, they only had one kid because the law said you can only have one kid. But then China. REALIZED that that was a terrible idea, because they had a ton of very old people and a very small um taxing base, right? And the older people needed, you know, the healthcare pensions, all of that, but China couldn't tax that many people to make that money. So then they got rid of the one child policy because they're like, we need more kids, we need more people to tax essentially. But the thing is, is they found that they, it did not really help. The demographic crisis, because the middle, the middle age or middle aged, the 20 year olds, I guess, the generation that they're trying to get to have more kids was like, hey, we're strapped for cash. Um, THERE'S only one of us, and we have to take care of our parents, because you guys can't take care of our parents. And also, it's very, it's very strong in Chinese culture to take care of your parents. So like, we're financially strapped, we're taking care of our Parents, there's not a lot of us, and we're not going to have kids because we can't afford to have kids. And so even though the one child policy was no longer enacted, people were not having kids or only having one kid. And so it was an economic reason as to why people were choosing not to. Of course, there's also a gender aspect, which is the fact that there are way more men than women, um, which only compounded the problem. But it's a very fascinating kind of case study. Um, AND then I also want to say, In regards to, I think there are, I think your three points are good points. I think there are some additional ones. Uh, I, I do think that this is a, this is a working theory on my end, but I do wonder if part of it, and this is somewhat in relation to the gender political realm, if young women and girls were, when they actually this could be related to feminism, but as we progressed as a society, Women were young girls were pushed to go to university and stuff or expected to go to university, and I'm not saying that in a negative way at all. Obviously, I went to university and I went to law school, and I am a lawyer. So like, I, what happened is a lot of girls started going to school and stuff, and we're not focused on, you know, the kind of more stereotypical view of male female gender roles. So you said it is gender roles, but I'm actually gonna maybe push back on it a little bit in that it was almost like The, the loss of gender roles, because what happened is at the same time that was happening, not many people, it seems, were pushing young men to learn how to do household duties. So what happens is a lot to me, it seems a lot of girls know how to do a lot of different things. They can work a job, make money, and they can do the dishes, and they can cook, and they can do the household stuff. But at that same time, there was no one teaching little boys how to do the household stuff. So now we have an asymmetry where a lot of women are like, Hey, like, I need somebody that can do everything because I can do everything and to actually work in a partnership where we're in an economy where we have to have two people working. We also have to have two people doing household chores. So I think that there's a little asymmetry there. Um, THAT, that's just how what I've noticed when I was, I'm engaged now and have been with him for 2.5 years. Um, AND he knows how to do all the household chores and also work, which is awesome. Um, THANK you to his mom. Uh, SHE'S great. But, um, I, I had been on dates with men who like couldn't do literally anything, and I was like, well, I can, like, I'm a lawyer, dude, like I could do all these things. And so I think that there might have been some kind of asymmetrical education there where girls were pushed to be educated and get jobs, and men were not taught the more the other side of the picture, and then the economy comes in, and so everyone's kind of struggling to date in that situation. I think that's just kind of a theory of mine. Um, YOU can disagree or people. In the comments can disagree or add their opinion on that because it's a working theory, but

1:24:06 Ricardo Lopes: no, no, yeah, sure, no, I definitely agree that that must have an impact on relationship satisfaction. Actually, the fourth factor I wanted to mention that I missed just a few minutes ago, it just came to mind. I mean, the other factor I think that really has had an impact on dating has to do with how we organize society. Over time, so more and more and more people nowadays are living in cities, and the way we organize cities, particularly around cars and all of that, increasingly there's fewer and fewer what sociologists call third spaces where people can go, I don't know, parks and cafes and things like that. I mean, Cafes are more complicated because actually you have to, um, I mean you have to spend some money there. When sociologists refer to food spaces, it's mostly public spaces where people can meet and interact and meet new people and all of that, and we have few, increasingly fewer and fewer of those in our modern cities, particularly in the West. And so, Uh, it's hard for people to meet new people, uh, and also since people live, uh, outside of their original communities. I mean, many people are born in, I don't know, villages or small towns, and then eventually they have to move to cities to find a proper work there. And so, They are separate from their family and their communities. I mean, because traditionally people, their partners and their sometimes lifelong partners, they've they used to meet them locally. I mean they sometimes even their family arrange them to meet potential partners, sometimes. It was people from their broader community, but it was, it's easier for people to date when they have a social network that can connect them to other people that they can potentially date when they're living in a small apartment in the middle of New York where they barely know anyone. And they're trying to meet new people just by themselves. I mean, that's extremely hard. That's really hard. And so what people do when they don't have those choices available when they don't have a broader social network that can connect them to new potential partners is that they turn to dating apps and I mean, and look, I know that. There are many success stories out there of people meeting their partners, their husbands and wives on dating apps. I know that that happens, but for the most part, dating apps are really not that good at all. Also because, I mean, it's just their business model. They're designed to keep you there for as long as possible, and I mean, for the most part they just don't work because You know, it's the way that human relationships work is that And they are more successful in the long term, the more time you spend with the person you get eventually into a romantic relationship with. And so it takes time to build. It's, I mean, the sort of mentality that we have nowadays of serial dating and, OK, I don't know that person at all. I just know how she looks. And the little information that she put on Tinder or another app, and I'm going to, and I'm going on a date with her and now I'm very impatient because I really want to know if I want, if there's going to be something here or not. I mean, that just doesn't work. I mean, people, people traditionally, and it makes lots of sense. THE people they used to date with people from their school, from their university, from their workplace, from their local community, because those are the ones that we tend to form long term relationships with or we've been interacting with for a long time before we get into a romantic relationship with them. And I mean these kinds of arrangements. It doesn't seem to me that they work most of the time. So,

1:28:58 Carolyn Kraft: so do you think that, um, I mean, you're saying that, you know, the, the loss of kind of public spaces to connect? That's an interesting point. And I think that's actually probably why, um, religious communities are doing relatively well when it comes to partnering and stuff is because there is a, a a public space. I mean, it's not really pop, but you know what I mean, like, they can meet each other and There's that kind of more traditional dating experience rather than the, the hinge date or whatever, Tinder, whatever. But, um, do you think that that the loss of public relationships is like a cyclical issue with dating, where less people are going to go out and put themselves out there or meet people, because they also have in their hand a way to scroll and find um potential suitable. And the reason why I asked that is because when I was single, um, I rarely use dating apps. I probably use dating apps for 2 weeks my entire life. Uh, I didn't meet my fiance via dating app. We actually met in the gym. And I, as a single person, I actually found no issue finding group events. There was a running clubs, so many running clubs. I hate running. I didn't, I didn't do it. But there were lots of running clubs. There were walking clubs. There was. Every Friday there was an event, and I mean this is citywide, and I don't live in New York City, but I do live in a mid-sized city, um, and it was like every Friday we had, um, uh, grass volleyball, and there was like flag football and there was, um, ultimate frisbee, and then people were constantly setting up hiking groups. I was on Meetup a lot. There are tons of groups on Meetup for like, if you're interested in AI. I did some AI stuff, all these things, uh, um. You know, I joined another group where I learned how to house hack, stuff like that. So I'm like, well, I, do you think that there's some kind of like a self-perpetuating problem here where I agree we are losing kind of like the community public sphere, but at the same time, because we are given these apps, there's not as much motivation to go out to do it.

1:30:50 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, I mean, probably that makes perfect sense to me, and I, and I think that also, I mean, the more time you spend indoors just scrolling through your, uh, I don't know, your social media and things like that and just trying to rely on, oh yes, someday I will eventually find the guy. Or the girl on the dating app, I mean, I, I think that further reinforces you being more and more and more indoors because you, I mean, at a certain point you probably people don't even think anymore that it's worth just going outside and trying to meet new people. Also because again there's not lots of public, proper public spaces to. That and another important thing here has to do with whether you can go to a public space and not spend money because I mean again the economic aspect of things are you could go to a cafe, you could go to a restaurant, you could go to the shopping or to the the shopping mall or whatever, but I mean those are all spaces where you have to spend money and you know nowadays people are so. Thin when it comes to money. I mean, it's so hard for them that, oh, OK, so if I now go with my friends to the cafe to try to meet a new girl that they might introduce me to, yeah, I, I go there, but I have to spend money on beer or coffee or whatever, and I don't really have that money or I, I'm barely making it through the month, so you know. And these things all intersect with one another. I mean, I mentioned these factors, but it's not that they are completely independent from one another. So, but, but again, I mean, again, I just mentioned all of this to say that and because we were talking about sex work, that I mean, it, it seems really hard to me to make a proper evidence-based case that Sex work is really one major factor or the main factor, as some people argue that has impacted romantic relationships in a negative way.

1:33:25 Carolyn Kraft: But if, if dating apps are, do you Could you make the argument that pornography is also, I mean, dating apps aren't exactly like pornography, but they are somewhat similar in that you are looking at the perfect version or the preferred version from home with no incentive to go out and meet anyone or do anything. And dating apps do have a psychological impact. We did this just discussed that. If that's the case, then how could pornography not do the same or similar?

1:33:56 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, I mean, I mean, again, maybe it's just that uh from what I know with conversations again that I have on the show with neuroscientists, I mean, the, the best. Ones I've had on the show are with Nicole Prosi again, I've already mentioned there and with Erik Sprinkel. We, we talked in that conversation, we talk about the history of masturbation and pornography, but we also talk about the psychological impact that pornography might have on people and I mean the The best data that we have tends to point toward people who are the biggest porn consumers are also the ones who tend to have more sex. So that sort of idea

1:34:43 Carolyn Kraft: isn't that kind of an outlier though? Like, I mean, are we looking at the top 1% in that situation? Like, shouldn't we be looking at kind of like a general, like the average person maybe?

1:34:54 Ricardo Lopes: I, I mean, I'm not completely sure about that, and that's a, that's a great point, but I mean, just to say that at least as far as we know, I mean, the best knowledge I know of out there points to the fact that that sort of cliche idea that we have of, oh yeah, the guys who consume more pornography are the lonely ones. WHO live in their mother's basement or wherever or they work, but they are constantly indoors and they are serially masturbating to pornography or whatever. I mean that's not really really very supported by the evidence. I mean, what the evidence points toward is really that. The people who like to consume porn the most are the ones who have high sex drives, and many of them, if not most of them, not only consume porn but also have sex with other people and with more people. So, and it's the same actually for social media, and this is something that many people are not really aware of, but even in the Early 90s, in the late 90s, early 2000s when there was not even any social media, but people were, some people were already worried that there were people out there who supposedly were spending all their time on the internet and stuff like that. But and back then it was to have to get in touch with other people. It was mostly forums and stuff like that. But actually, for example, people who interact with more people on the internet or who have, for example, more friends on Facebook also tend to be more sociable and they have bigger social networks offline. So I mean that. There's also that, so it's, it's not like, oh, OK, the people who are less sociable are the ones who are all the time on social media and they have all of their friends online, but they don't have any offline friends and stuff like that. And the same for pornography. I mean the the. At least as far as I know, I could be wrong, but,

1:37:27 Carolyn Kraft: uh, I mean, you, I mean, you've inspired me to look into it a little bit more because I'm very curious, and I want to see, um, I want to check the two individuals that you mentioned that you have videos on because that's, that's very interesting. I want to see what their, what their studies say. So thank you for bringing that up.

1:37:40 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, so look, we're, we're almost reaching our time limits here. So do you think that there's anything about sex work that it would be Worth talking about that we haven't touched on really, or

1:37:56 Carolyn Kraft: I think we covered some main topics. And I think what was really cool about our conversation was that we also touched on a lot of things that it kind of like, almost tangentially was related to, which is, which is what I said in the beginning of this video is that it's actually a lot more um integrated, I guess, in our society than I think a lot of people are aware of. And that's why I think these conversations are really important. Um, SO I'm, I'm, I don't think there's anything else. Is there anything you'd like to discuss in addition?

1:38:23 Ricardo Lopes: No, I don't think so. I, I, I mean, I, I, I think that the only thing that, but, but I'm not sure if there's any other points that you would have to bring to the table, but I was just wondering, since you're a lawyer and you are really into how law works and all of that, do you have any particular perspective? From a lawyer's point of view when it comes to full criminalization, partial criminalization, legalization, and decriminalization of sex work, I mean, do, do you, because I, I was wondering, I'm not a lawyer, so I have a perspective on that, but I was wondering if you from a legal perspective would have something particular to to add to that.

1:39:13 Carolyn Kraft: You know, I think my big thing from a legal perspective, and I kind of said this earlier, is the overinclusivity and underinclusivity of laws. I just think that when determining whether we want to make laws about sex work, we really need to take into consideration, um, who it includes, who it doesn't include, who it might accidentally include or not include, and actually have sure definitions of this kind of stuff, because it is, um, once you implement these laws, the theory is always great. But then once it's implemented, it usually turns out to be something very different than what is imagined. And so, I think that we just have to make sure when debating these laws, that, you know, we actually consider the externalities that may come along with um certain laws, whether the law is legalizing it or that law is making it criminal, right? I also think that what needs to be taken. Consideration. And this is just, it's kind of from my legal perspective, but again, it's um the overall externalities of laws or the lack of laws. And we've talked about this ad nauseam at this point, but it's like, who else is being impacted by these things? And what, how are we going to weigh what is good and what is bad, or what is better, what is worse, so.

1:40:30 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, OK, so look, let's perhaps wrap up our conversation. I mean, we could be here for another 2 or 3 hours because this is, uh, like an endless, uh, topic that we can tackle. So, but, uh, look, apart from your YouTube channel, which I, uh, by the way, later on we'll send you a link to add you as a collaborator there at uh on our interview. Uh, APART from your YouTube channel, where can people find you on the internet?

1:41:01 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, so, uh, they can also find me on Instagram. It's crafty Thinking, and I also have a sub stack and then Facebook as well.

1:41:09 Ricardo Lopes: OK, great, I will let them,

1:41:11 Carolyn Kraft: oh sorry, crafty thinking with a K like my

1:41:14 Ricardo Lopes: name, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it will be in the description. I will have all of that there. So look, Carolyn, it's been really great to talk with you. It's been a fascinating conversation, and I, if you're open to it, maybe we can have another one in the future.

1:41:28 Carolyn Kraft: Yeah, definitely. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. It, it really got me thinking, and it was kind of fun to, you know, go back and forth and really dive into some of these topics and consider things that I hadn't previously thought of. So, and you asked great questions, so.

1:41:41 Ricardo Lopes: Hi guys, thank you for watching this interview until the end. If you liked it, please share it, leave a like and hit the subscription button. The show is brought to you by Enlights Learning and Development done differently. Check their website at enlights.com and also please consider supporting the show on Patreon or PayPal. I would also like to give a huge thank you to my main patrons and PayPal supporters, Perergo Larsson, Jerry Muller, Frederick Sundo, Bernard Seyaz Olaf, Alex, Adam Cassel, Matthew Whittingberrd, Arnaud Wolff, Tim Hollis, Eric Elena, John Connors, Philip Forst Connolly. Then Dmitri Robert Windegerru Inai Zu Mark Nevs, Colin Holbrookfield, Governor, Michel Stormir, Samuel Andrea, Francis Forti Agnun, Svergoo, and Hal Herzognon, Michel Jonathan Labran, John Yardston, and Samuel Curric Hines, Mark Smith, John Ware, Tom Hammel, Sardusran, David Sloan Wilson, Yasilla Dezaraujo Romain Roach, Diego Londono Correa. Yannik Punteran Ruzmani, Charlotte Blis Nico Barbaro, Adam Hunt, Pavlostazevski, Alekbaka Madison, Gary G. Alman, Semov, Zal Adrian Yei Poltontin, John Barboza, Julian Price, Edward Hall, Edin Bronner, Douglas Fry, Franco Bartolotti, Gabriel Pancortez or Suliliski, Scott Zachary Fish, Tim Duffy, Sony Smith, and Wiseman. Daniel Friedman, William Buckner, Paul Georg Jarno, Luke Lovai, Georgios Theophannus, Chris Williamson, Peter Wolozin, David Williams, Dio Costa, Anton Ericsson, Charles Murray, Alex Shaw, Marie Martinez, Coralli Chevalier, Bangalore atheists, Larry D. Lee Jr. Old Eringbon. Esterri, Michael Bailey, then Spurber, Robert Grassy, Zigoren, Jeff McMahon, Jake Zul, Barnabas Raddix, Mark Kempel, Thomas Dovner, Luke Neeson, Chris Story, Kimberly Johnson, Benjamin Gelbert, Jessica Nowicki, Linda Brendan, Nicholas Carlson, Ismael Bensleyman. George Ekoriati, Valentine Steinmann, Per Crawley, Kate Van Goler, Alexander Obert, Liam Dunaway, BR, Massoud Ali Mohammadi, Perpendicular, Jannes Hetner, Ursula Guinov, Gregory Hastings, David Pinsov, Sean Nelson, Mike Levin, and Jos Necht. A special thanks to my producers Iar Webb, Jim Frank, Lucas Stink, Tom Vanneden, Bernardine Curtis Dixon, Benedict Mueller, Thomas Trumbull, Catherine and Patrick Tobin, John Carlo Montenegro, Al Nick Cortiz, and Nick Golden, and to my executive producers, Matthew Lavender, Sergio Quadrian, Bogdan Kaniz and Rosie. Thank you for all.