#1295 Neal Hebert: A Philosophical Analysis of Wrestling | WWE SummerSlam 2026

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Ricardo Lops, and today I'm joined for a second time by Dr. Neil Herbert. We're going to talk about SummerSlam 2026 today, and we're going to refer now and then to his book with Dr. John Cockburn, who unfortunately today cannot. Join us Kwave Nation, Professional wrestling, Donald Trump and the new cynicism. So Dr. Hubbert, welcome back to the show. It's a very big pleasure to have you back. I'm,

00:35 Neal Hebert: I'm very happy to be here, you know, for love of the dissenter, I broke my seven-year boycott of WWE to watch SummerSlam. Um, HONESTLY, it's not, it's, I mean, the, the Saudi money did make it feel kind of. To watch, but honestly, I just stopped having time to keep up with WWE once there was a secondary promotion that was more my taste. So I kind of came into SummerSlam familiar with most of the wrestlers, uh, most of the older wrestlers, um, because they were all new when I was still watching. So I, I know some of the lore, but also I'm coming in it a little bit blind. So don't be surprised if, if I complain about not knowing who the good guy and the bad guy are in certain matches, just because it was not always clear.

01:19 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, uh, by the way, and, and we have to do also, I, I mean, to respect your own preferences and I also follow away. By the way, but we also have to do an episode on the upcoming All In because uh it's probably going to be a very good show as always.

01:37 Neal Hebert: I went to the last All In and, uh, cause I live in Louisiana, so it was just a short drive to Texas. My wife took me for a present. It was the best show I'd ever been to in my life. Um, SO I'm very excited. I'm gonna watch AEW All in anyway, as, as I mentioned, uh, before we were recording, so I'd be happy to talk about it and hopefully, John. WILL be able to join us too. I do know John's pet peeve with wrestlers are good guys who chew gum, because he associates that with bad guys, and sometimes when there's too many gum chewers, he just gets, he, he loses, he loses his Ability to suspend his disbelief. So hopefully, all in will not be filled with that. But I remember I messaged him about watching an episode of AEW and he responded like, Neil, everyone is just, he's like, they're all heels, they're all chewing gum. I was like, I'm sorry, I should have, I should have warned you that, uh, you know, that's, that, that is, everyone has their pet peeves for, for me. One of my pet peeves is whenever the announcer says, for the win, and anytime the announcer in wrestling says for the win at a pinfall, it's not gonna be the end of the match.

02:46 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. I mean, you have some things that not a single one of them curiously is coming to mind right now, but you have several things that caller commentators say on wrestling shows that they're giving away spoilers about the match.

03:07 Neal Hebert: Yeah, it's, I mean,

03:09 Ricardo Lopes: I mean, when they, when they say particular things, you already know that the match is not going to. Went anytime soon.

03:15 Neal Hebert: And that's just because there are patterns in commentary and that was kind of the, one of the things I wanted to start off talking about like the insularity of WWE. So, um, I, I watch a lot of different promotions. Uh, I, I've got my CMLL, uh, t-shirt on for, uh, you know, the, the biggest and oldest, uh, North American wrestling promotion is in Mexico City. They own Arena Mexico. And they're also, they formed a loose alliance of promotions to counter to kind of protect their company against WWE's encroachments. But WWE it's very interesting. It's kind of this totalizing entity, and there's always been a tendency toward that where the only wrestling history that matters is WWE history. But WWE also has certain things they do. That it's very clear they only do because Vince McMahon preferred things to be done that way. So, you know, like, um, the, the for the win thing goes back to Vince McMahon on commentary. Anytime someone says for the win, it's a signal that the match could end, but it's not going to end right now because you don't want to give away the actual pin. Um, SO, yeah, there's, there's tropes like that, there's, um,

04:32 Ricardo Lopes: Oh, you, you know, you know one thing, you know one thing that actually started when Vince was still there and that really irritates uh my, my, uh uh uh really irritates me. I mean, the, the fact that they can't. Call the championship a belt. I mean, it's a damn belt. What is something that you put around your waist? Are you kidding? Are you kidding me? Are you gaslighting me?

05:01 Neal Hebert: It's, and, and you almost never see the wrestlers in WWE wear the belt around their waist. They put it on their shoulder. Um, SO it stands out when you watch another company, and they have the belt around their waist, or when you watch like UFC or boxing, and they, they crown the champion and put it around their waist. So there's all sorts of little like peccadillos of WWE that are there. So the first point I wanted to make is, so, SummerSlam was not an effort to preach to the unconverted, right? Like, uh, you know, there, there's a, there's that saying that the preaching to the choir, that's what, that's what SummerSlam was. If you already like WWE you're getting a great show. And the parallel to that to me is it's, it's kind of like MAGA, not in terms of like, being, you know, bad or anything, but like, if you watch how the Trump administration is functioning. They have stopped speaking to anyone that isn't already part of the coalition. So you've got in America right now very high approval ratings for the war in Iran among Trump supporters, but for literally 60 to 70% of the country, it Very low approval ratings. So, you know, it goes from with uh where the Trump administration used to be very good at managing the crowd, um, they've kind of now resolved to focus on the crowd that they've already managed and not worry about the rest. And that to me was a big thing with WWE. So like, um, I, I say it's almost like WWE is engaging in dialogue with itself. The big thing that stood out to me, and this was after the Liv Morgan match, which is the first match on night one, they talk about how great it was that we were given this moment. And throughout the show, and throughout both shows, they talk about how great the moments are. But they never talk about the matches, right? Like, I, I grew up in the 80s and 90s. So when I watched wrestling, the match was the constituent unit of a pro wrestling show. But for SummerSlam, it's the moment is the, is the reason you watch the show, and the match is kind of secondary. And um, so I, I, I kind of said, it's serving up red meat to the faithful, but it's also kind of doubling down on a sort of stylistic insularity. Do you, did you find the same thing?

07:22 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, no, I I totally agree with you. I'm, and I mean another thing related to that that really irritates me is why they don't acknowledge, um, I mean wrestling from other promotions that they do not have a partnership with, like, for example, if it's DNA, OK, that's fine, but if, if it's. A, if it's, uh, I don't know, a Mexican promotion that is not AAA, then, and then you can do it. I, I mean,

07:54 Neal Hebert: would not have killed the show in the main event of night two to mention that Dean Ambrose is now John Moxley, and he left the company since they were talking in the ring about we're the two that stayed. You know, mentioning that the other guy left and is now in another company, I think would have heightened the moment, the moments, right? If, yeah, I, I completely agree, it's, it's when you talk about, if we were watching a different sport, um. They wouldn't refuse to talk about athletes in other sports or in other promotions or in other countries.

08:31 Ricardo Lopes: I mean, because that's a part of their career, right? I mean, and you, and if you want to, I, I mean it's even more stupid if for example, Cody Rhodes came back in 2022 and they refuse to say that he was where he was. Between 2016 and 2022, I, I mean, then the audience who doesn't follow anything outside of WWE, what are they going to think that he was basically on hiatus for six years and how does he come back and he's as good as he is now? Come on, this, this

09:10 Neal Hebert: is

09:10 Ricardo Lopes: just

09:10 Neal Hebert: stupid. It's very it's very interesting because when he came back. If he hadn't left, he would not be in the position he's in now. He would still be dashing Cody Rhodes, or wearing a Doctor Doom mask or whatever he was doing, like, In the old days in the territory,

09:27 Ricardo Lopes: no, he, he would be stardust.

09:29 Neal Hebert: He'd be stardust, OK, he'd be stardust, yeah. So in, in the old days, one of the things that was natural about wrestling is once a character or a performer has completed their arc, they go away, and then you can bring them back and they're fresh, and frequently after, you know, going away, they can come back higher on the card because presumably they've learned a lot. And Cody, I mean, Cody is really good. Um, I, I like to make fun of Cody. Because, uh, he cries a lot when he talks about his dad, you know, and, you know, as someone whose dad passed away, I also cry a lot when I talk about my dad, but I don't put myself on TV and then intentionally channel that, um, the way that Cody sometimes does, but, but Cody's a great professional wrestler. He's got the best entrance in the company. Like, to me, his theme song, and that's because it's not a WWE theme song, it's a theme song he got, um, a band he liked.

10:24 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the. That's the other thing we have to get into the theme songs, because nowadays, Jesus, are they bad in WWE.

10:33 Neal Hebert: There's a lot of bad entrances, so, um, I was kind of surprised at how bad some of the entrances are, because that used to be WWE's big thing, and I know for WrestleMania, they do a lot of like pageantry for the entrances, so I liked Cody coming out as Gile from Street Fighter 2. That was an ad I saw that I liked, like there were lots of ads on the show that I already bought, like, I already spent $30 on the show. Why, why am I seeing ads? But, um, when Cody comes out as the tie in the Street Fighter, I was like, OK, that's cool. And then Punk came out dressed as, was he dressed as the Incredible Hulk, or no, he was, he was dressed as someone from Minnesota, wasn't he? He was,

11:12 Ricardo Lopes: uh, I's attire

11:14 Neal Hebert: was a reference to somebody, uh, maybe Vern Goya, uh, in Minnesota. It could, I, I, I, I know it was a reference, but I don't remember what it was a reference to. But yeah, the, the entrances were, I'll talk about Seth Rollins' entrance when we get to Seth Rollins' match. Uh, I was not a fan, short version. I was a huge fan of Roman Reigns' entrance though. Um, THEY, they did an excellent job with Roman. I thought they did an excellent job with Obafemi's entrance. I having never seen Obafemi before. Yeah,

11:46 Ricardo Lopes: but you know what, another thing that is irritating me more and more over time is how some entrances are so goddamn long in WWE. My God, why do you need a 5 minute? Entrance for a single wrestler. Come

12:04 Neal Hebert: on. I, I want to say for the main event of night two, there were 20 minutes of entrances and stare downs and announcements and video packages. Then the match went 30 minutes. Yeah, like, it was a lot. I, I didn't mind because by the time I got to the end of night two, the, the best matches were at the end of night two, so I was like, OK. But there were some rough stretches of that show, um, especially for me, the, the Danhausen stuff is definitely not for me. Um, THE human money is on a pole batch. I, I, I'd like, I, I eventually stopped watching and just kind of waited until the match was over.

12:46 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, you, you know, you know what, the only reason why I give that a pass, I, I, I tend to agree with you, but the only reason I give that a pass is if I look back. On older pay per views, I mean, there's always one silly match. There's always one match that doesn't make much sense, there, it's just for fun or it's just for a laugh or it's just for, or, or even it doesn't make any sense at all, and this, it, it isn't, it is even a bad match, but it's for me you always have one like that.

13:21 Neal Hebert: Yeah, for me, the comedy just didn't land. I don't have a problem. Comedy matches, it's just Dan Hausen doesn't work for me. Dominic Mysteria though, I think is great, um, and I've, I've, I've heard that he is currently not particularly happy with the way he's being presented since in

13:38 Ricardo Lopes: one, and I, and I think he's right, I, I think he's right, by the way. I, I mean, I think, I think that they're underutilizing him.

13:46 Neal Hebert: He just looks wise, is the most natural heel in that company and for people who, who might not. Remember the first talk when I mentioned heel, that's the, the carny term for a bad guy and baby face is the carny term for a good guy. And when I see Dominic Mysterio with his neck tattoos and all this, like he looks like, um, the kind of guy in America that, that sells meth to high school kids behind a Circle K or a convenience store, right? Like he, he looks like a scummy dude, and he definitely looks like the kind of guy you wouldn't want to take your daughter out on a date. So, for me, that's a very good thing. But the, the Danhausen stuff with the, you know, the PC term is little people, um, with all the little people coming out in Danhausen masks, and they tell us one of the little people that's a minihausen is actually Mini Torito and AAA and blah, blah, blah, it just, that didn't land for me. Um, THE, the second point I wanted to make overall about the show is, and I think this applies to all of wrestling, but it really applies more so to WWE is that in the book, we talk about how to be a wrestling fan, you have to have 3 different ontologies. There are 3 different realities in a match you track. There's the reality. The match, uh, the fictional reality, which is that you're watching a competition where there's a winner and a loser. Then there's what you're really watching, which is performers putting on a show, and then there's what Jody Reisman calls neoKfabe, and we use that term as well, which is the understanding that you can't, the neofabe is the combination of both, and that tends to be a, uh, it tends to be a hallmark of watching contemporary professional wrestling. Since the Montreal screw job, WWE has almost completely eliminated any reference to what we used to call, what we called the work ontology. Like, there's no illusion of watching a sporting event when you watch SummerSlam. Now, that was, you know, and that was what got me into wrestling. My dad was a big boxing fan. So when I saw wrestling, it was like, oh, this is like what my dad watches, but cooler because they do more stuff. Like, uh, so for me, the, the, the fictional aspect of the show is very important. And WWE is deemphasized. That a great deal.

15:59 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, that, that's one of the other things that irrilates me apart from, oh, you can't say belt. I mean, now you can say wrestler on WWE,

16:08 Neal Hebert: come on, which is cool because I remember the first time someone, uh, I think it was in the CM Punk Pipe Bomb promo in 2011 when he said, he said the word pro wrestling on TV and the audience gasped. Like, that's a problem when we look back on that, right? Like, pro wrestling is an art form that was beloved for the better part of a century. And once Vince McMahon took over, you couldn't call it pro wrestling, you called it sports entertainment. Well,

16:35 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, and, and now instead of wrestler, you have to say superstar.

16:40 Neal Hebert: Star and the WWE universe instead of fans. Like now that Vince McMahon has been kind of banished from the promotion, a lot of those no no's are, are no longer there. And that has helped the production a great deal. I, I remember the, when I was writing my dissertation on pro wrestling. It was right around the time that Dave Meltzer gave a match in Japan 6.5 stars. And I had an undergrad who was in a public speaking class, had to interview, he, he got to, they asked him to talk to an expert on a topic of his choosing, and somehow he found me. And I remember the thing I told him was that To me, as a wrestling fan, one of the most destructive things to pro wrestling was that one person in the American pro wrestling industry for about twenty-ish years had complete control over what was on TV, sometimes unopposed, sometimes opposed. So wrestling became really inseparable from Vince Mc. Man as a promoter's preferences. And a lot of those preferences are contrary to what a lot of hardcore wrestling fans like. And there used to be a thing, if you read, like, different interviews with people in the business, that one of Vince McMahon's favorite things to do is prove to people they're wrong about what they're like, by doing what they technically wanted him to do, but doing it badly. And I will say that didn't feel like it was happening on the shows I watched from SummerSlam. It, I, I, I would say there were different challenges associated with it, but I did not feel like Triple H Paul Leveck, who is the booker right now, I don't feel like he was trying to do what the crowd wanted to prove the crowd shouldn't like what they like. And that's a big, that's as stupid as that might sound, that is a big improvement over how wrestling was promoted in WWE for a very long time. Um, ANOTHER thing. Uh, WHEN I talk about moments and things like that, this, this comes to the commentary. And, uh, so, OK, I, I, I wrote this down in the main event of night two. Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins will stop wrestling and talk to each other. Yeah, they'll have dialogue, like at a play, and it There's no, people are gonna laugh at me when I say this, but there's no subtlety in it. Now, you might say wrestling is the least subtle art form there is. Now, I could agree with that, but even given that, this was a bit obvious. My old acting teacher, the acting teacher who told me I needed to be a director because I wasn't talented, his name was John Dennis, amazing. He was in Young Frankenstein, if you watch Young Frankenstein, he's the fat doorman. Uh, THAT, that's like, hello, like that, that sort of scene. He used to call acting like we saw with Roman and Seth indicating, uh, which means that they're performing their feelings instead of feeling their feelings and letting us see that they're feeling their feelings. So, and that kind of gets down to, I feel like in WWE there is a correct, quote unquote, way to respond to what you're seeing. And the reason I say that is because commentary exists to engender that response in viewers. So, you know, it, it can't be subtle because with subtlety comes the possibility of different interpretations. But if you listen to Michael Cole, Michael Cole is frequently telling us how to feel, and that's why the moment thing is so important. Because if the moment is what matters, then the moment can be explained to you and defined for you, so that there's a correct and incorrect way to watch WWD that I don't think is the case with the way wrestling is presented in many other promotions. Now, I I will say, you know, CMLL, they have very strong face heel distinctions, and they're heel fans, they're heel refs. So it's, you know, there is a correct and incorrect way to watch other promotions too, but not to the extent that WWE is. WWE is very overdetermined in the way that they want their crowds to react to. And I think in part that's because they're, they're targeting children. Um, EVEN though, you know, like, I think we said this the last time we talked, the most number of kids that ever watched wrestling was during the attitude era of WWE, which was decidedly not kid appropriate, because for the most part, you know, parents that might be watching will say this, kids don't want. Watch things that are aimed at kids. Kids wanna watch things aimed at people that are older than them so they can feel like big kids. In my experience, I'm not a parent. I'm a, I'm a cat dad. I don't know if y'all could see some cats behind me, but, uh, uh, we're in my office. So if you see movement behind me, that's what's going on. But yeah, like the, that was, that was kind of the big thing with the commentary that got very annoying to me is that, you know, I, I wasn't allowed to just react. I was being told how to react. Yeah, now, I did enjoy myself for the most part. I don't, uh, uh, I'm talking about all the negative because, you know, as scholars, we, we focus on the critique, right? We focus on, uh, a grad student would say we problematize things. Uh, I would say, cause I'm not a grad student anymore, I would complicate things, right? That's what, uh, that, that's a better word than problematize. But, um.

22:09 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, and I mean, as intellectuals, we have to focus on the negative stuff, otherwise we're not taken seriously, right?

22:15 Neal Hebert: That's very true. That's very true. Like you can't wear your fandom heart on your sleeve. That's why I limit it to my shirt, right? Like the, I finally worked hard enough to get a professor job so I can wear my Japanese and Mexican pro wrestling shirts every day. Um, BUT, you know, on You know, you can't be too enthusiastic. I remember in grad school, as I, I'm a theater historian who also does philosophy. That's my philosophy is my master's degree. And I remember in one of my classes, one of my classmates from another program, uh, in English, wanted to write about the musical Wicked because she loved it. And our professor had to say, hey, so like, we're, it's really cool that you love this, but the paper can't be about your fandom. The paper has to be about the scholarly reaction to that fandom. So, you know, I, I, so I, I, I'm gonna pause for a second and say, uh, things I really liked, Liv Morgan, she's a star, um, she's, her presentation as a bad girl champion, wonderful. Um, NOW, she does attempt to do moves that you see in Japanese women's promotion, and frequently she does them badly. But when she avoids those moves, like I think she, I think it's Rena's head scissors into a DDT from the ropes, like she, that she did that in the first match of night one, did not look good, but everything else looks good. Her finisher looked good, her facial expressions in particular, like, I complain a lot during the show that I don't know who the faces are and I don't know who the heels are. I knew Liv Morgan was a heel, and she wanted me to know that she was a bad girl and she was not there. So I love Liv Morgan.

23:53 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but, but I, I, I have to say something on that. I, I mean. I get what you're saying, but of course since you had been out of WWE for 7 years and

24:06 Neal Hebert: I've followed, he hasn't been shoved down my throat, so I'm not tired of it,

24:10 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, I've followed WWE for that entire period of time. I have to say that this match, Liv Morgan versus your Sky. Was the first match that I could say in terms of in ring was a good match from Liv Morgan I think I'm a I'm a I don't, yeah, I, I, I I I look, if you ask me, tell me what are your top three Liv Morgan matches. Uh,

24:40 Neal Hebert: I can't. I've only seen one. I mean, I'm not just in there with the consensus best woman performer in wrestling right now. So, you know, I mean my match commentary. She, she did. I'm fairly confident Liv brought the match down from what it could be, yeah, but I mean she's. Yo Sky is really good. So like, I, I didn't mention that because everyone knows that. Um, THE other, another good thing I wanted to talk about was, OK, uh, Nick Aldis's entrance was amazing, uh, British wrestler coming up to Oasis, just great. Now I know it was probably expensive for that, but it was still a wonderful moment, right? It was a great moment. The match, not so much. Um, ANOTHER thing. The Bella's and Paige versus Fatal Influence. Now, I've the match was the match good? No, um, but also that's because Bree Bella was supposed to be the, the, the baby face in peril selling, and she dislocated her shoulder minutes into the match. So they had to do things pretty early, uh, and go home early. But I thought the, the women in Fatal Influence were very impressive, particularly Fallon Henry, and I'm, I'm told she was a big deal in NXT. Um, I thought she was very good. Uh, THERE'S one point where she's walking around outside, and she just screams at one of the Bella twins. Uh, SHE calls her a bitch in the middle of the match, and I was like, oh, she's gonna have to pay a fine for that cause the camera definitely picked it up. But she, those, the, the women in Fatal Influence definitely carried themselves like they were somebody important. So even though I've never seen them before, I felt like that was really cool. Um, THE other big thing, and then we can go back to pre, pre-prepared comments. Obafemi, um, I, all I knew about Obafemi was that he was supposed to be the next big thing. I left that match with Brock Lesnar, being like, OK, well he's gonna be the next Roman Reigns, and that is very clearly what they wanted to communicate. They successfully did it. The only way it would have been better would have been if the match had been shorter, which I know is a weird thing to complain about. But when I saw the, the, the pack, the video package giving me the story, and I saw the entrances, I'm like, oh, I want Oba to just destroy him in 4 minutes. Like, I don't want this to go past. I want Oba just to retire. Brock Lesnar and be the guy, which I got, it just, it took a little bit longer to, um,

27:12 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, it was like 11 minutes instead of 4.

27:16 Neal Hebert: Yeah, and, OK, so this is, this is another of the things I wanted to mention, um, and we're gonna, it came up during the Chad Gable and Penta match, and I mentioned it to you before we started recording. So for people that are familiar, the biggest WWE news story of all time before the Vince McMahon stuff that came out a couple of years ago was the Chris Benoit murder-suicide. He's a pro wrestler, a beloved pro wrestler who, um, due to brain damage, uh, and massive depression. Uh, BOTH symptoms of his CTE from brain damage, um, killed himself after murdering his family. And the WWE did a tribute show to him the day after he died, uh, the day he, so the day after he died, which was the day they found out what happened. There were wellness checks, and it wasn't until the middle of the show that it came out that Chris Benoit had been the murderer. So they made a promise the next show, which was smackdown that week. To never mention Chris Benoit again on WWET TV because they felt so bad that they lionized a murderer, and I get that, um. In the Chad Gable match, um, Chad Gable did one of Chris Benoit's signature moves, and the reason it stands out is this is the move that is believed to have caused a lot of the brain damage. It's called a swan dive headbutt. He, he spreads his arms, jumps off the top rope, and kind of goes horizontal, heads right here, and then slams his head into the person's body. It's a very alarming move once we learned about brain damage and things like that. And when he did this, The announcer screamed, vintage Chad Gable. And there's a, a discourse in theater and performance studies that John and I are both big fans of. I believe, I believe we cite it in our book, um, and it's a, it's a paper or series of books by Odai Johnson. He is, I believe, a professor emeritus at University of Washington in Seattle. And he talks about the, uh, Act of remembering to forget things, and he puts that in context of the first instance of theatrical censorship, which is uh the performance of Frinicus's play, The Capture of Mileus in ancient Athens, which was about an Athenian colony that was conquered and razed to the ground, and Athens did not. Send its armies to support them. So Phrinius wrote a play about the shame of Athens not doing that. And the, I believe it won the festival. It was his first win, but the, uh, they called together the, uh, the people to vote, and they fined Prinius for making them remember something unpresent. And banished the play. No one could ever do it again because it would bring up unpleasant memories. And uh Oda compares that to the concept of ostracism, where you take a vote, you expel someone, you reduce their house to rubble, so that everyone sees the house as a reminder to forget. And the problem with the Chris Benoit diving headbutt is that we kind of have that situation for anyone with a sense of wrestling history, that move is not vintage Chad Gable, it's vintage Chris Benoit, and it very much takes me out of the match. Now, that's not the only move like that. Shawn Michaels, who's considered one of the, the best American pro wrestlers in WWE history, He was one of the first people to do Chris Benoit's finisher move finishing move afterwards, the crippler crossface, which is a submission hold. Even then, it was something that just, I think it's gonna take a couple more decades before people can take those signature moves and get them outside the context of Of that tragedy. So for me, that, that sort of, I think Chris Benoit's moves being done are, are sort of like this reminder to forget about Chris Benoit. But the thing about remembering to forget is you're not really forgetting. Um, IN fact, you're doing the opposite of forgetting, right? You are being crystal clear on what you are not supposed to remember, which requires you to remember it. So that, that sort of tension there, uh, was a big problem.

31:36 Ricardo Lopes: And, and, and by the way, when it comes to that move specifically, because what came to my mind when that happened during the match, apart from what you said was, I mean, should people still be doing this move because of what we know now?

31:54 Neal Hebert: Well, and it's not just Chris Benoit, like, if you look at the person Chris Benoit idolized, the dynamite kid. Dynamite kids in a wheelchair. He did, he, he wrestled a style that was so violent, and he put so much muscle on such a small body because he was also undersized like Chris Benoit, he was 5'8, 59. He, he was not able to maintain his health doing that style of wrestling. It's the same thing. Maybe there are some moves that we shouldn't do, which, which kind of brings me to my next point, which is that in WWE, uh, the biggest marks are the wrestlers. Now, for people that don't know wrestling history, mark is the old school term for people that are being tricked to believe wrestling is real. Now, the people The audience no longer believe wrestling is real. Um, THE people that are wrestling in WWE are often the ones who, who think what they're doing matters more than it does, particularly in terms of labor conditions, which we talked about in the book. Um, THERE are, if you follow wrestling journalism, there are many people in WWE who have been offered more money to go to other promotions, but they choose to go to WWE because they grew up as WWE fans. And they're led to believe that a WrestleMania moment is more important than financial security. To the point right now that there are people that are being, having their contracts renegotiated for less money. Many of them are choosing to stay with like half salary just to stay in WWE. Now, we're about to see some of the people who are like, no, we're gonna go make more money in AEW and you can fire me. Uh, THE New Day in particular, about to. Jump over to AEW, but to me, like, a lot of the people in WWE, I, I think it's indisputable that they would get a bigger opportunity to have better matches in other promotions, whether that's TNA, even NXT, right? Like NXT is the feeder promotion, AAA, uh, those are the WWE affiliates, as well as the AEW CMLL, New Japan Stardom affiliates. Um, I, I think that, you know, WWE is really doubling down on hiring old fans, so that they can make sure that they're not paying as much and that they don't have to improve labor conditions. Now, we say that, and like in the book, we talk about how, you know, maybe the only thing we can hope for is a good billionaire instead of an evil billionaire running a company. But at, at the same time though, I, I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about unionization. IN wrestling. I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about forcing the government once there, there's a government change in the United States to renegotiate or look at the idea that WWE and, and AEWE wrestlers are independent contractors. Now, in AEW they actually are cause they can take bookings elsewhere, um, as long as they're not booked already, but in WWE you cannot get booked anywhere else. So they are in no way fitting the legal definition of an independent contractor. Uh, THEY don't have health insurance, they have to buy it themselves, they don't have X, Y, and Z. And I think that that's, uh, you know, one of the reasons that can continue is people are so grateful to be in their dream job that they're willing to do it. Now, I will say this, I'm also in my dream job. I took a massive pay cut to go to my dream job from a charter school teaching high school, and so I'm a big mark too, like, I'm, I'm in no position to like criticize wrestlers for being marks when I'm the biggest mark for academia there is. Um, BUT it still stood out that these people that we're watching perform are at least having the time of their lives, or when the matches are obviously too short, pissed off that they're not having the time of their lives. Yeah.

35:36 Ricardo Lopes: No, I, I agree as well with that point. So I mean, should we go, let's go match

35:41 Neal Hebert: by match. Yeah, those are, those are my big overarching points. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got, I've got my notes. Um, SO yeah, the first match is Liv Morgan versus EO Sky. Um, THE first thing I noticed is that. Uh, Liv Morgan is really not as good at hitting people and making it look real as Eyo Sky is. For people that might not be familiar, Eyo Sky is consensus considered one of the best women's wrestlers on Earth, if not the best women's wrestler on Earth. Previously, it was Oka, who was Kana in Japan, and I, I, I still think Oska is unbelievable. Anytime I see her, I, she's probably my favorite. Women's wrestler, I got to see her live in NXT in 2017, 1 of the best shows of my life, for 2016. I saw it in 2016, so much fun, so awesome. So I, I was excited to finally see EO Sky, and I liked the match. Um, THE, the big thing is though, Having been to stadium shows, stadium shows are awesome if you're in the crowd live, but they aren't usually mked well for TV, and that was a consistent thing I noticed with SummerSlam, and I suspect we're gonna notice it at all in when we talk about that as well too, is that the the TV cameras, it, it, the crowd sounds less excited than they actually are. Like we could see the crowd cheering. But because the building is so large, you don't hear the crowd getting involved the way you would in a smaller building. Yeah, um, I thought, and we, we kind of already talked about this, um, it's very clear that the WWE thinks Liv Morgan is one of their biggest stars. Um, TO me, that's the one thing I knew about because I've seen, even though I don't watch WWE, I saw the Dominic Mysterio Liv Morgan kiss. I see the, the lots of pictures of Liv Morgan wearing Daddy Dom shirts and things like that. So I, I, yeah, I can tell they're really invested in her. And, you know, you, you said she's usually not that good of a wrestler. They did put her in with the best wrestler. In the world, she had a good match. Um, I was, I was left thinking like I'd like to see more of Liv Morgan. I'm, I might be in the minority because I don't watch regularly, but I, I liked that match, um, particularly when Liv Morgan did the code breaker, one of Chris Jericho's old moves from the top rope. I, I remember I yelled, I was like, Oh, I thought she killed Yo. So that was a fun match to me. What did you think?

38:08 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, I, I mean, I have two things to say. I, I, I mean, and, and actually these are two things that apply not just to Liv Morgan but also to, uh, the WWE more generally. I mean, one of them is I mean, at this point I'm getting sick and tired of all of these hills that win matches just because of outside interference. I mean, it's just, why is it that we can't have a hill that is just so strong. He or she can win them matches without someone interfering. I mean, why can't you have a strong heel? Why do all heels have to be weaker than their baby baby baby face versions? And why do they have to always play their I mean, why can't you have just a heel that is philosophically opposed to the baby face and doesn't play dirty or doesn't need people from their group to interfere with the match for them to win. I mean, well,

39:19 Neal Hebert: historically it's because if the heel cannot out wrestle the baby face, the heel is actually the baby face. That's how territorial wrestling presented it. But I think you can see models of how to make what you're talking about work. Um, SOMEONE like MJF in AEW, MJF loves to cheat, and the tragedy of MJF is that he could win without cheating, and he proves that over and over again, but he's so despicable. He takes shortcuts, and I didn't see a heel that did that. WWE, um, I, I think that that would be something that that version of heal is a time-tested heel. The person who's despicable because he chooses to do evil, uh, when he's perfectly capable of doing good, right? So for me, um, you know, the, when you have too much outside interference, it does get kind of boring because You know, it's at that point, it's like, why are there, why is the promotion so incompetent? It can't, cause in the NBA, right? No one from a third team runs on the court and, and helps, uh, someone block a shot. If that happened, things would be very, very, uh, different. There'd be fines, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, in wrestling, you'd think the same thing. And, and I know, uh, there are some promotions that have titles where you They, uh, don't allow outside interference, and if there is outside interference, both people, the person interfered on and the person interfering are in storyline fired. So that's why no one will do it because they, they know they can't get away with it. I would like to see something like that, but yeah, like, from what I saw in Live with EO Sky, I, I would have been fine with Liv just taking a few shortcuts, um, or, or, you know, like injuring. Yo's arm or something like that and then ruthlessly attacking it and taking a shortcut like that, yeah, because in hiring a girl to come out and distract and blah blah blah blah blah, yeah,

41:13 Ricardo Lopes: because this is something that really pissed me off during Roman reign's reign. I mean, I mean, no, not that he's 1300. Something they because uh after a certain point, particularly when Jay Uso and Jimmy Uso joined him, it was match after match after match after match, him always winning because of interference. I mean, and it's tiring. I mean, is he strong or is he not strong?

41:52 Neal Hebert: Come on. And he also didn't have many. Matches during that run because he's a part-time wrestler, um, which, you know, it is what it is, but I, I don't think the 1500 day reign or however many days it is, is impressive when he'd go 100 days between matches, right? Like Bruno San Martino wrestled every week. Uh, THAT was Athena in Ring of Honor wrestles almost every week. So it's, it's a very different achievement than Roman

42:19 Ricardo Lopes: Reigns. By the way, the same thing applies to Liv Morgan during her current reign because she's, she went for, right,

42:28 Neal Hebert: yeah,

42:29 Ricardo Lopes: since WrestleMania, it was like a 90 day, uh, non-defense championship.

42:36 Neal Hebert: I mean, that is the problem when, when your, your champion is champion because she's good in skits and not good in the ring. So, you know, like, on the one hand, Yeah, it's annoying that on a wrestling show, the, the, the champion doesn't wrestle, but it's a different problem when maybe it's best that the champion doesn't wrestle, right? Like, at that point, it's like, oh, well, maybe. Maybe we should reevaluate.

43:00 Ricardo Lopes: No, no, no, because that's another thing that sort of irritates me nowadays in WWE. I mean, now it's pervasive, this idea that, oh my God, certain big names shouldn't be overexposed, otherwise people will get tired of them. I mean, go back to the attitude error, Stone Cold, The Rock and Undertaker every single. Single show they were there, and then anyone ever get tired of them. I mean, come on,

43:31 Neal Hebert: come on. The, the only time I think you should not overexpose someone is when you're dealing with like a giant or a special attraction, like, because Andre the Giant, the way they protected Andre in the territory days is he would be brought in for one big match, and that was when you saw Andre the Giant, because if you see him every week, you might notice that some of the tall guys are actually as tall as Andre. So you had to do it like that. But for the most part, if, if your champion gets over by just being a badass wrestler, then having them wrestle is a really good thing. You, it's the opposite of overexposing them. You're seeing them perform their strengths. So, you know, for Liv, I'm guessing since what you're saying is she's not great in the ring, like they're probably maximizing her minutes by not making you watch her wrestle except once every 100 days.

44:20 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, and that's why, and this is. Sort of post SummerSlam. That's why I'm hoping that now they're going to set up a feud between Becky Lynch and Stephanie Wacker to elevate Wacker even further. I hope that happens and then I hope that Wacker just takes the title of Liv Morgan. I mean, because I'm just tired of Liv Morgan

44:44 Neal Hebert: talking about WWE wrestlers being marked. Stephanie Vaker is one who was offered much more money to go to WWE. After her match with Mercedes Monet, but, uh, she, she was offered more money to go to AEW, but she grew up watching WWE in Chile. I believe she's Chilean, right? So she wanted to go where she watched wrestling as a kid. So, you know, like, good for her. She's living out her dream. Um, CONTRAST that with someone like Blake Monroe who, as best I can see, is only doing internet shows eating chicken wings and not wrestling. She went from being one of the best,

45:17 Ricardo Lopes: my God, that. That's another thing. I don't know why WWE does so much of this of, oh, moving someone from NXT to the main roster and then and then keep hyping them, hyping them, hyping them, but then it takes like weeks or months to fight for them to finally have a match on the main roster. I mean, what the heck?

45:44 Neal Hebert: When Blake Monroe was Mariah May, she was probably Favorite women's wrestler in AEW. I thought she was terrific. Um, AND I really hope WWE fans get to see what she can do because she's, she's wonderful in the ring. She's a great actor too, on top of that. Um, BUT, you know, she's living her dream. She's another one. You go back, look at her Twitter account from 1516 years ago. She's live tweeting Monday Night Raw and pay per views and stuff. So she's another one. Just she's living out her dream. Good for her. Let's, let's switch gears now and talk about the, um,

46:16 Ricardo Lopes: The yeah, the, yeah, the, theos, yeah, it

46:20 Neal Hebert: was plus Jacob Fatu against LA Knight, Royce Keys, and Solo Sokoa,

46:26 Ricardo Lopes: right? Yes,

46:28 Neal Hebert: um, I don't, not not to sound like the mom on Arrested Development, I don't care for the Uos. Uh, I'm not a fan of Jay. I'm not a fan of the Yeat man, I'm, I'm not a fan of. Honestly, I, the, the person I thought stood out in that match was Jacob Batu. Um, I thought he was really good. Um, I noticed that there were Gears of War themed entrances for, for this, so they incorporated the ads, like, we see. So for people who don't know, between every match, you see at least 3 or 4 ads. Then the entrances are often ads as well with a tie-in to one of the sponsoring products. So some people came out with a Gears of War themed, uh, entrance cause E-Day is coming, the, the next Gears of War game. And, uh, so they found a way to incorporate that. But that, that match, um, It was very interesting. The first thing I wrote, cause Jay Uso started the match is Jay Uso is no Jerry Lawler when it comes to punches. His punches looked awful, um, but I didn't have a lot to say about the match just because I, I didn't think it was particularly interesting. I didn't know who the good guys and the bad guys were. I assumed the Usos were good guys because they're with Roman, but now my friends in my wrestling group chat that we texted about, like, oh no, dude, they're the heels, like, what? But they were, but he was screaming ye and doing all this stuff for the crowd. So again, the, the face heel distinction seemed incoherent. I thought that Royce Keys. IS a big downgrade in AA from when he was Powerhouse Hobbs. It's another thing where I know the WWE wants to own people's names, but, you know, the man's in his 40s, he, they signed him because he was a really standout wrestler and big man who looked perfect for WWE, but then they stripped him of all the things that made them want to sign him. So that, that was Peculiar. Um, I did think that Jacob Fatu felt very special, and LA Knight, his finishing move looked awesome. Um, AND LA Knight seemed to be the biggest good guy in the building, uh, in night one. So I'm, I'm not sure, is he gonna be pushed to the main event? Are they talking about that? What do you think?

48:42 Ricardo Lopes: I mean, for someone who's been following WWE this entire time, it's just hilarious that you say that because he's been over for at least 2 years, but Triple H refuses to push him. So I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's going to happen. I mean, there are certain guys that I don't know exactly why. I don't know exactly why, but. JUST refuses to push them.

49:09 Neal Hebert: I mean, it's very interesting because like, it seemed to me that of the people with like an organic connection with the crowd so far, he's the big one. HE might not have been the best person in the ring. There was some stuff that, you know, wasn't awesome when he was in there, but he was fine, you know, and it's not like he's in a promotion where you have to be the best in ring. Performer on earth, right? There's no Kurt Angle in WWE anymore setting the bar that high in the main event. They're producing a different style. There's nothing about LA Knight that wouldn't work with the WWE Main Event style. Um, IT'S, you know, he would be fine, and I thought that it was, it was very obvious the crowd adored him. So to me, it's like, well, this is gonna be the next big baby face. Apparently not. That's. It is what it is, but, you know, I see these interviews with Triple H where he says like, oh, people who complain about who's in the main event, you've got to take their spot. You've got to get over on your own. Well, it looks like LA Knight got over on his own, and he's curtain jerking, right? He's in the second match. Um, SO that's all I have to say about that one. WHAT do you think of Gunther and Nick Aldis?

50:16 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, I mean, Gunther and Nick Aldi. I, I, I mean, the, the thing about. IS that they're sort of they turned him into a guy who's supposedly be who supposedly now is the one who's always there to end careers. I mean yeah, it's the career killer. I mean the end of the, or supposedly end of the career of Goldberg, John Cena, AJ Stiles, and now Nick Aldis. I mean, I guess. If they want to give just Nick, if they wanted to give just Nic Aldis his flowers and oh, OK, you can have a match in a pay per view, I mean they call it PLEs now, but whatever in a pay per view, in the WWE pay per view, yeah, we're going to give you a match. I mean, so. I guess that's cute in a way, but, uh, the, the thing about it

51:07 Neal Hebert: was ringside, right? So he did get the big WWE PLE moment in front of his wife, who's, you know, uh, the, the very famous modern wrestler Mickey James, very accomplished women's wrestler, and his son. So like, and they came in the ring afterwards and hugged him. Like I thought that was really cool, and I will say I did. Listen to the Wrestling Observer reviews of these shows after I watched them, and that was the consensus that they're primarily interested in Nick Aldis as a GM. But since he is a big, since he is a big part of their show, they wanted to honor him and give him that big moment, um, because the, the reality is, Nick Aldi is good. He's not great in the way that Gunther is great, in the way that Roman Reigns is great, in the way that others, so there's a limit for him as an in-ring performer in WWE that would not be there as a GM, and I've been told he's excellent as a GM. He, so, you know, I, I was, I was very happy to see that. I, I've watched Nick Aldis before. I've watched him in the NWA.

52:09 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but the only thing about Gunter is that it seems like they don't have any specific, any proper direction for him. I, I, I, I mean, because he wasn't having, first of all, he didn't even have a match at WrestleMania. I mean, he, he had just ended John Cena, John Cena's and AJ Sta's careers and. He didn't have a match on WrestleMania. I mean, that's insane. Uh, HOW come you went the career of the, uh, of what they're calling the goat of WWE John Cena and you don't have a match on WrestleMania,

52:48 Neal Hebert: a champion, right? You'd think he'd be one of the top champions if he's ending all of these legendary people's careers like that. That seems like it would be the the logical thing. I, I will say Gunther is one of the few guys that's really good in ring that I would not recommend jumping to a different promotion. He really stands out in WWE. Now, if he were to jump, it would be because of bad creative, but, you know, unlike a lot of guys in WWE, he's found his niche in that company. He's got a role. It's just The creative that's a problem. Um, FOR most guys like Sammy Zane, Kevin Owens, uh, Chad Gable, I think all of them would have benefited from jumping to a different promotion, like Cody did than being brought back at a higher level. Um, BUT Gunther, I think he's the one that broke that curse. Now, I, I also wanna say, I did prefer him as Walter. I thought his WWE NXT stuff as Walter was unbelievable, and that Volter versus, uh, Ilya Dragonov stuff might be the best matches in WWE history. So, you know, even though they were under the NXT UK banner, um, I, I was still very impressed, and I thought Volter versus, uh, the bruiserweight back when they were in NXT was at that time the best match I've seen under the WWE banner. Um, I thought it was better than everything until they did Adam Cole versus Johnny Gargano, which is my personal pick for best WWEE match I've ever seen. So, but yeah, I enjoyed the Gunther thing. I a thing I noticed about this stylistically is that the WWE is, is the pace of their matches is much slower than other promotions, and that is intentional, um. I know that if you talk to uh people that are in the WWE will frequently talk about doing things the right way and the wrong way, and the WWE way that that is right is you slow down to give the moment, the moments, time to breathe. Um, I found myself bored, uh, sometimes. I, I think that most matches could have been. 20% shorter, the ones that were long at least, and worked at least 20% faster. Um, AND they all would have been better, like, especially the main event of night two. Like if that had just been faster, um, and a little bit shorter, I think, I think the match would have been much better. Um, uh, SAME goes for, we'll. Talk about punk and Cody later. Yeah,

55:06 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, yeah, because the thing I agree with you, and the thing is, yeah, if you're going to want to have those break moments, so to speak, and then now and then wrestlers talking to each other or wrestlers talking to the camera. I mean, that makes much more sense if you're doing a movie and not a wrestling match. I mean, to, to have the sort of dialogue and those dramatic pauses during

55:35 Neal Hebert: the

55:35 Ricardo Lopes: fight

55:35 Neal Hebert: and dialogue, um, and, and the thing I see on, on Twitter for, for fans of WWE, they talk about things being cinema. I, when I watch wrestling, I don't wanna watch cinema. I wanna watch wrestling. Um, YOU know, when I wanna watch cinema, I go to the movies, and, you know, I don't go to the movies very often because it's very expensive, which I also hear WWE live events are now. Um, SO maybe they're similar in that way, but, but yeah, I don't want the dialogue during the match. I'm fine with, with the monologues, with the exchanges backstage, but If you're gonna stop competing in the match and be like, oh baba, uh, they left, we're here, blah blah, it's like, come on. Now, there was an instance of talking I liked in the, uh, Chad Gable Pina match when Pinta apologized before kicking the hell out of Chad Gable's head. I was like, OK, that, that's fine, and cause it's a callback to, to me at least, to the Shawn Michaels Ric Flair retirement match where Shawn Michaels apologizes to Rick before ending his career. Um, I was like, OK, I liked that callback, but, but that's because it was a line. It wasn't dialogue going back and forth while they just stood there. Um, YEAH, we've already, we've already kind of talked about Bella's and Paige versus Fatal Influence with Bree Bella getting injured a couple of minutes in. Um, AT the, at the beginning of the match, I wrote that I think it's gonna be pretty because until she got injured, I thought Bree was pretty good as the, the baby face getting beat down. Um, IT'S very clear, uh, I've read different things that her husband is her coach, and her husband is possibly the greatest wrestler of all time. So, you know, it's like she's gonna be, you know, as long as, if, if he's her trainer right now, she's gonna be the strongest in that match cause I love Soraya. I thought Soraya's comeback or page, uh, in AEW was very moving. I thought her entrance music was great. But, but Soraya slash Paige is not known for being a good wrestler. She was a, she was the first goth girl that they brought into WWE in the 2000s. That was a lot of people's first crush, and, uh, especially younger men, and she's beautiful. She's one of the most beautiful people on the planet, but when you watch Paige, Her thing is not the end ring. Her thing is the presentation, the appearance. And I also, here's the other thing, I discovered I had nostalgia for Nikki Bella. I never would have dreamed I had nostalgia for Nikki Bella, but when she got in there, I'm like, OK, Nikki, all right, like, you know, did I watch Total Divas? No. Um, BUT a lot of my women friends did. And Nikki Bella did a lot of work mainstreaming women's wrestling that she doesn't get enough credit for. So when she got in with her, her, like her hair set up, she looks kind of, I'm like, OK, Nikki, all right, like this is, this is kind of cool. So I was pleasantly surprised to learn that I missed Nikki Bella and Bree Bella, um, and, and that I had a little bit of nostalgia for that. Um, SO yeah, um, the other, I,

58:30 Ricardo Lopes: I mean, the, the only thing I'm going, uh, I have to say is that I honestly think that Fallon Henley should be the front woman instead of JC Jane.

58:41 Neal Hebert: I thought she was better than JC Jane. I thought JC Jane was. Very good, but I thought Fallon Henry really stood out in terms of the way she carried herself. Like, she carried herself like she was somebody I should care about in a way that the other two women didn't. Like, it's, it's like Fallon Henry felt like a more complete pro wrestler to me. Uh, BUT that's just going off of appearances, right? Like, so maybe she's just better at emoting and physicality, uh, but I, I thought she was the standout, not JC Jane, although I did like JC Jane a lot. I thought the third woman in Fatal Hinge, Laney Reed. I thought Laney Reed was the weakest of those three, but I left that match wanting to see all three of them more. Um, I think the young women in WWE are really promising. Uh, FOR the most part, they're the ones that stand out, not the young men that I saw coming out of NXT. Um, SO, OK, let's talk Rhodes versus Punk. What do you think of Rhodes versus Punk?

59:38 Ricardo Lopes: Um, I'm, I, I'm, I mean it, I, I think that in ring, it was quite good. Uh,

59:46 Neal Hebert: IT was the best match of the first night except for maybe the Sky match.

59:50 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was also thinking about the Obafemi versus Brock Lesnar, but that, that one was not so much in terms of being a really technical match. It was just that, uh, it was just for the purpose that the match had to serve. It, it was really good.

1:00:11 Neal Hebert: I mean that crown that match was about crowning Obafemi as the present and Brock Lesnar as the past, and it accomplished that. It could have done it quicker. You know, the thing about Cody and Punk was, um, It was sloppy. Like, a lot of the time it was slop, like punk through did the worst moon salt I may have ever seen.

1:00:30 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, YEAH, I, I, I, I almost, I almost forgot about that one. Yeah. I,

1:00:36 Neal Hebert: I laughed out loud when he, when he landed and looked at the camera and was like, uh. You know, I, I thought that was funny, but I don't know, they, they worked a very 1980s slow style, and I just did not want to see a match that slow at that point in the show. Um, Cody Rhodes, I don't think gets his flowers enough at how good he is in ring. Um, I know punk is older, and, um, I will say it is difficult for me to watch punk in WWE after listening to all of the interviews he did for a decade about how WWE destroyed his love for pro wrestling and almost killed him with. Diagnosed staph infections and MRSA. So for me, it's sort of like, man, CM Punk is like a complete sellout and hypocrite for going back there. Um, AND that, that kind of defined the match a bit. Like, I don't necessarily want to see him back in AEW, but it feels like For all the shit he talked about WWE and this and that, it's, it's like him going back was, it, it, it, it just doesn't feel right for me as a fan. But, um, yeah,

1:01:41 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, and, and also when it, I was going to say because you mentioned how the match was so slow. I think that for the kind of build that they have in terms of their bodies, I mean, I think that they should do a faster match, a faster.

1:01:58 Neal Hebert: I mean, they're not muscle bound like Obafemi and Brock, so they can maintain a faster pace, but with punk being like 48, 49. That might be the fastest he can go, um, and that's OK. Like, I, I, yeah, but Cody can certainly kick it up a notch. And, you know, when you've got a wrestler who's physically limited and a wrestler who isn't, typically the wrestler who isn't can provide the illusion of movement. That's what Kevin Nash used to call it. He's like, oh, I loved working with Sean cause I could just stand there and he moved so much, it looked like. I was moving and no one noticed that I was just standing still. You could do the same thing with that because Cody is very good. And the, you know, as much as I like to, to goof on Cody Rhodes, he has a great entrance. He's a great performer. Um, YOU know, I hear they want to turn him heel and he doesn't want that because that's why he left AEWs. They wanted to turn him heel, so I don't know how that's gonna go, but Cody Rhodes is great. Uh, I, I loved him in AEW. I thought it was very dumb when he did that stipulation where he could never be world champion cause he obviously should have been, um, cause he's an exceptional performer, and, uh, you know, I'm glad he's getting his, his flowers in WWE cause he's very, very good. Um, AND he, he deserves to be given like that. He, he earned, he didn't deserve it, he earned it, is the way that, that I would say, like he's a very good performer. He, he should be in the main events. Um, WHAT about hell in a cell? Uh, I,

1:03:21 Ricardo Lopes: I, I mean, the, the only negative thing that I have to say about the hell in a cell match is that it didn't really feel like a hell in a cell match. I, I mean, I, I, I mean, it was almost, uh, as if the cell was not. There, I mean, they could have done, they could have done 98% the same match without the cell. They barely used the cell.

1:03:44 Neal Hebert: I mean, it didn't feel like a hell in a cell match. They didn't integrate the cell into the structure of the match. It would have been better as a straight match to me, um, because the cell kind of took the cell took away from the match because if it wasn't a hell in a cell, they could have gone shorter. I think that's why they had to go 12 minutes. Like we can't have a hell in a cell match end in 5 minutes. Yeah, but a couple of things I noticed, production wise, the sound in the cell was very good. They, they miked that cell and the ring very well for that. Um, THE other thing is, Lesnar looked both old and sad. Uh, HE turned purple, like the, like a grape. Uh, DURING the match, cause, you know, he was out of breath, and, um, uh,

1:04:29 Ricardo Lopes: uh, uh, that, that's been happening for a while now, actually. I mean, him turning red, purple,

1:04:35 Neal Hebert: yeah. It was weird, um, I, but, but I haven't, you know, I haven't watched Brock in a long time, so I wasn't aware of the, the redness thing. Um, SO the other thing I noticed is when, when Brock pulled up the ring, uh, pad and exposed the boards and did a tombstone. Yeah, that would have been so much more impactful if the Undertaker had just retired after he lost to Brock. At WrestleMania and didn't come back.

1:05:03 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, because, because that was like 12 years ago or

1:05:06 Neal Hebert: so. Exactly. If that had been the end of The Undertaker, then Brock, the pulling out the Undertaker's finisher, you know, they, they talk about in the next thing I wrote is Michael Cole said, what a memory we've been given tonight. Well, it would have been a better memory if, you know, the, the past story that was being referenced had made sense because it it.

1:05:28 Ricardo Lopes: And you know what, it, it would have been a better memory also if Brock Lesnar didn't decide to go off script during WrestleMania and made as if he had to retiring then,

1:05:44 Neal Hebert: yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I feel like if you're gonna do the, the take off your gloves, leave your boots in the, you kind of got to retire, you know, you, but, you know, it is what it is. Um, I, I get that. And, you know, I do have a lot of happy memories of watching Brock, and uh I was left thinking, oh, I would like to see Obafemi in there with someone who's a really good wrestler to see what he can do in a technical match because, you know, the thing about Cody as a top guy is Cody Rhodes can both emote in the, in the promos and have good matches. But since I've only seen Obafemi once, uh, I don't know how good he is. How good is he in the ring?

1:06:22 Ricardo Lopes: No, I think he's great. I mean, he, he has had some great matches in NXT before getting called up, and I think that his, his trilogy of matches with Brock Lesnar, I mean, in that kind of style of two monsters clashing with each other, have have also been great, so I mean I, I don't have anything, I don't think I have anything. Negative to say about Obafemi and and and I mean when it comes to matches being like as we sometimes say, a wrestling clinic or just being, I mean, meat on meat or something like that. I mean, I don't have anything against the second type of match. They're fun. I mean if they're doing, if they're done right, they're fun as well.

1:07:08 Neal Hebert: The I know in AEW when Powerhouse Hobbs, now Royce Keys, would wrestle other big guys, the crowd would just scream meet over and over again as they hit each other. And you know, I don't want to see every match like that, but sometimes you just want to see two big guys hit each other, and it's fun. Another thing, um, so I teach a lot of international students at the HBCU. I'm a professor at rambling. And a lot of my international students come from Africa. So to me, having the next big baby face be coming from the developing world is a huge thing, I think. And, uh, a lot of my international students that like wrestling love WWE. So I think that in terms of global growth and things like that, getting 100% behind. Uh, AN African baby face is really cool because you've got, I, the, the thing I noticed other than Obafemi, none of the, the male wrestlers except for Javon Evans on the show were black. Am I forgetting anyone? Were there any other people of color that were men? Because we had a lot of Samoans, we had a lot of Samoans, but, you know, the, I think in terms of African American or African men, we only,

1:08:21 Ricardo Lopes: there was a Trick Williams on night two, right? Trick, trick.

1:08:24 Neal Hebert: Oh, that's what I, yeah, Trick Williams. OK, cool. Yeah, so we have 3, and of those, I thought the only one who really stood out was, uh, was Obafemi. Um, SO for me, I think getting behind the main event black good guy is a really good thing because You know, like, representation, especially in an American focused business is very important. And for the developing world to have this aspirational figure presented as like a godlike, uh, performer, I think it's gonna be really cool. It's something you don't see a lot. I mean, the only other African wrestlers I can name off the top of my head is like Nigeria's Power Ui. And the, the thing about Paruzzi is he was not good, uh, you know, he was very big, but he wasn't particularly good. So having someone coming up that's, that's being presented in this beautiful way, uh, shown as like this, the epitome of masculinity, and he comes from the developing world, I think that's a really good look and, uh, something I like.

1:09:24 Ricardo Lopes: I, I agree. Yeah, so, let's move on to night two.

1:09:28 Neal Hebert: So for night two, it starts with Finn Ballard versus Sammy Zane. Then Nick Aldis comes out and adds Gunther and Kevin Owens to the match. Um, AND this is the match where I noted, all three guys that weren't Gunther probably would have benefited from jumping ship to a different promotion and coming back after a couple of years. Um, I think I've never been a Finn Ballard fan. Um, EVEN though I watched New Japan, Prince Devitt was not, I never got into him as a heavyweight. I thought he was a good junior weight, but in Japan, if you're a junior heavyweight, there's a limit to how good you can be. And Finn Ballard, the Bullet Club back then was him and, uh, Carl Anderson, and, uh, God, the other guy, um,

1:10:14 Ricardo Lopes: uh, I, I unfortunately didn't watch that part of his career,

1:10:18 Neal Hebert: so it wasn't the good brothers are who they wrestle as in the, in the United States. They were the, uh, the club in WWE when they hung out with AJ. So that era of Bullet Club was not my favorite. So I'm not a huge Finn Ballard fan. I think he's got a, a million dollar look in terms of his presentation. But it's very obvious he has a ceiling in WWE because of his size, and if he had gone somewhere else and proven that he deserved that, that, that shot, I think it could have helped. But at the

1:10:49 Ricardo Lopes: same time I, I, I think he was also very unlucky because back in 2016. I think it was 2016 when he won the the Universal championship

1:11:00 Neal Hebert: the first universal champion.

1:11:02 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, he was the first universal champion, but on the same match, he got a huge injury, yeah,

1:11:08 Neal Hebert: like a massive injury, and I remember next week Kevin Owens came out and said, I'm the longest reigning universal champion of all time. And I was like, oh, it's such a good, that's such a good heel move. So I wasn't a big fan of Prince David. Um, I love Sammy Zane. I love Kevin Owens. I think both of them are incredibly talented, and I know both of them are probably WWE lifers because they grew up. Kevin Owens learned to speak English watching Monday Night Raw. He thought Slobberdocker was a The old term in English that everyone used, so, um, and apparently he got made fun of for that when he came to America. So I love those guys. I, I think they're great. Um, I think Kevin, yeah,

1:11:47 Ricardo Lopes: the, the only thing is that I don't see it, I mean, if, if Kevin Owens ends up winning the undisputed championship, I don't see. Having a long reign at all. I don't see that apparently

1:12:02 Neal Hebert: has said that he doesn't know how long he's back for, and he wants to go out in a blaze of glory, which is what Steve Austin did, and Muto did that too in 2001. They both came back from career ending injuries, and they wrestled for a year or two, like they weren't injured, and they were like, I don't care about the consequences and Yeah,

1:12:21 Ricardo Lopes: I don't, yeah, yeah, because uh that came to mind because you see Sammi Zay was also there and he was champion for a very, very short while and comparing, for example, what they did in WWE with the Sami Zay championship reign, we compare that, comparing that to uh what they did with Darby Allen in AEW the Darby Allen. RAIN was much better.

1:12:46 Neal Hebert: My God, that month of TV was unbelievable. I was so negative on Darby Allen being world champion, but when they did the story that he's like, Look, I'm gonna wrestle every week until my body breaks. I'm not here for a long time. I'm here for a good time. I was so wrong about putting the belt on Darby Island. That was the best month of wrestling TV in years. So yeah. Like Sammy is that good. Sammy Zane is a savant at putting matches together. He was a E Gennerico, he is a Sammy Zane. I've watched a couple different shoot interviews where people talk about Sammy Zane shutting down veterans. He's like, no, stop talking. I'm, I'm laying out the match, um, because he's that confident in himself and he is that good. Uh, SO I like Sammy Zane a lot. Um, I think. The problem with a lot of these guys in WWE is the worst thing you can do is show the writing team that you're good at comedy, because if you're good at comedy, they're only gonna make you do comedy, because they want the comedy stuff.

1:13:45 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, and I, I, I think that when it comes to Sammy Zan is again, the issue of him not being big enough, yeah,

1:13:52 Neal Hebert: size wise. He's so

1:13:55 Ricardo Lopes: good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but, but, you know, WWE, how it treats guys like him, you know,

1:14:01 Neal Hebert: and, and, you know, when you're appealing to kids, there is, look, I raved about Obafemi because he's big and was lit well, right? So I'm not immune to the wrestlers being big either. I thought, OK, for this match, I thought Owen's winning was obviously the right call. I thought even though it was an 8 minute match, he looked good during the match, he also dropped some weight, which I think is very good for his longevity. Um, BECAUSE, you know, we talk about it in the book, there are some guys you're fans of as people, and Kevin Owens, Kevin Steen is one of those guys that I'm a fan of that person, not that, not just that wrestler. So when I saw him come back slimmer, doing his moves, moving quicker, I was like, OK, this is all a good sign. Yeah, um, then we get to Baron Corbin versus Trick Williams.

1:14:47 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah,

1:14:48 Neal Hebert: I do not like Baron Corbin.

1:14:50 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, NO, I mean

1:14:52 Neal Hebert: Iyer was his name on the Indies. I, I have never seen Baron Corbin and thought there is money in this guy that people will buy tickets to watch this guy lose. Um, SO I don't know why he beat Trick Williams, who I wasn't a huge fan of Trick Williams from what I saw, like he seems kind of, uh, green. But he is obviously a better choice to be champion than Baron Corbett.

1:15:18 Ricardo Lopes: Like, no, I, I, I mean, the, the only thing I have when it comes to Trick Williams, and it's not necessarily his fault, but I mean, come on, there are some. People that compare his charisma with the Rock, I, I mean, come on, come on, that, that's totally unrealistic.

1:15:39 Neal Hebert: The only wrestler I've seen who's similar in charisma to the Rock. There isn't anyone. He's the most charismatic wrestler of all time, right? Like, it's almost a disservice to compare, I think that's part of the problem with Ricky Saints slash Ricky Starks is people call him a Timu Rock, and, you know, that, that is unfortunately what he comes across as, because next to the Rock, everyone is a Tu Rock, like, um, to me, uh. But the, in terms of like the young black wrestler with a huge upside and charisma, I thought the person that was like that is, is Swerve was Swerve Scott, now Swerve Strickland. I thought he had the most upside and charisma. Um, I also think he's clearly the most talented in-ring performer of color we have ever seen. Uh, Swerve is very good. But OK,

1:16:29 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, but, but Trick Williams, I, I like Trick Williams, don't get me wrong, it's just that, I mean, of course, he's not anywhere near the Rock in terms of charisma, and I mean, against Baron Corbin, come on, why did Baron Corbin win this match?

1:16:47 Neal Hebert: I mean, Baron Corbin, one of the, I remember right after I stopped watching, Baron Corbin was the on-screen scapegoat for wrestling being bad. They tried to put the heat on the creative being bad on Baron Corbin, and it's like, I, I just, I don't know. I, I don't think you, he, he's never worked for me, he doesn't work for me now. When I saw him come out, I was like, are you serious? Why is this guy on SummerSlam? WHEN there, when there are people on that roster that could have had that spot, but they gave it to Baron Corbin, I'm like, oh. So, you know, it, I did not look forward to seeing him. Uh,

1:17:27 Ricardo Lopes: WHAT about the leather match?

1:17:29 Neal Hebert: All right, so, um, I wanna say Dave Meltzer and Brian Alvarez said that is perhaps the worst ladder match in WWE history. I didn't think it was bad. But WWE has had a ton of incredible ladder matches. So it's, you know, so again, it's, it's not necessarily a bad thing to be the worst ladder match in WWE history. It's in, in Louisiana, I used to say I once dated the prettiest girl in Plaque and Parish, which is a very rural community, and people used to laugh. I was like, no, she is really pretty. Um, BUT you know, it's, it almost comes across like a backhanded insult. Um, BEING the worst ladder match in WWE is a pretty good thing to be actually. So, um, I, Again, so I'm, I'm familiar with Jade Cargill from AEW. Yeah. I think she had a major aura downgrade, and that is because they are not hiding her negatives, which are mostly in ring. One of my good friends, he's a sociology professor, Skyler Grimon, uh, he, he said in 10 years, people are gonna still be talking about how Jade has something, but her in-ring just isn't there yet. He's like, and it's never gonna get there. Um, IF it hasn't gotten there by now, like Brian Danielson coached her. If it hasn't gotten there by now, it might never be there. Um, THAT being said, I had never seen Tiffany Stratton wrestle. I thought she was pretty good. Um,

1:18:54 Ricardo Lopes: NO, Tiffany Stratton in ring is pretty, pretty

1:18:58 Neal Hebert: good, yeah, yeah, yeah. Charlotte Flair, obviously very good. Um, IF we're talking about what would make the best matches, Charlotte Flair should have won. Um, I like Chelsea Green. As a personality, um, so I'm happy for her winning because I know that on WWE UnREA, their show that goes into the behind the scenes, uh, Michael Hayes said she would never be the main character. So it's nice to see her being the main character. And I know in the, the after, after the show, she dedicated her title win to Michael Hayes. So that was cool. And, and then Lash Legend was there. And initially, I got pretty upset that Lash Legend was in there because it, Lash Legend appears to be just another Jade Cargill. So it's like, how can Jade stand out if there's another woman of color powerhouse in there. Then I saw the match, and I was like, oh, OK, so Lash Legend is there to catch women who are doing flips, and you can't trust Jade to do that. So Lash Legend was there for the safety of the other performers in a way that you can't rely on Jade. So yeah,

1:19:58 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, Lash Legend is safer than Jade Cargan. Yeah,

1:20:02 Neal Hebert: and I noticed she was a very good base for the high flying, like, anytime someone took a dangerous bump, she made sure she caught him. And it's like, OK, I've seen Jade not catch people, so I understand why they had to do that. Um, YOU need a big, a big person in there to be a base for the high flyers and There were a couple of women in there who did a lot of flying. And then I saw Jay drop some women on ladders and stuff. I'm like, OK, yeah, she's, she's kind of sloppy. Um, IT is what it is.

1:20:30 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but, but, but look, still, even with the in-ring negatives, uh, look, I think I, I, I think that Jade Cargill should have won. I mean, I, I'm just going to say it. I,

1:20:44 Neal Hebert: I gotta say like Jade, Jade looks wise is wonderful. Like when she. Walks out. She is very much the, if you see her at an airport, you look twice or 3 times because she is that striking. She's beautiful. She's athletic. She has massive amounts of charisma. It's just the in ring isn't there. I

1:21:03 Ricardo Lopes: mean, there's no one like, like her in, right?

1:21:07 Neal Hebert: She does stand out, and you need people that stand out like that. I just, I just wish she was a little bit more polished in the ring. But

1:21:14 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, but, but, but look, compared to the others, I mean, Charlotte Fleur. She's already a 14 time champion. I don't want her to be champion anytime soon. Um,

1:21:25 Neal Hebert: YEAH, is Ashley Flair, because she said in interviews that it's that she doesn't like that the women are being criticized for aging in a way that men Main Eventters aren't, and she's absolutely right. She does not look like someone who is 40 years old or late 30s or early 40s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She still looks like a champion, just like her dad, and if they're going to downgrade her. Because of her age, she absolutely should jump just like I think Bailey is about to jump, and I think that's the best thing Bailey could do. Um, I think Bailey is looking at her best friend Mercedes getting 25 minute matches and has to be a little bit jealous of that. Um, I would be if, you know, if I was as a theater artist, if I saw someone getting all these opportunities that I'm not, I would want to jump ship too. So, so I think Charlotte probably needs to jump,

1:22:12 Ricardo Lopes: uh, and then, and then Tiffany Stratton, I mean, she's great, but she She was a champion just last year and yeah, world champion just last year, and now she's US champion, so I don't think she should hold both championships

1:22:27 Neal Hebert: and I don't like double champions. I think

1:22:29 Ricardo Lopes: and and then Lash Legend, she's good, but she's still not there yet, yeah, and she's paired up with Naya Jackson. I think that if she was going to be women's champion, she should. First start their her singles career, I guess.

1:22:49 Neal Hebert: So I'm not a fan of Naya Jack's. I never have been. I, I'm just, it, it, I've never liked her in ring. Very pretty woman. Um, OBVIOUSLY, I don't want people to think I'm trashing her because she, she's a bigger girl. She's beautiful, but I just don't like her in ring. Like when she wrestles, I get bored. Um, BUT that's another person, if you're related to the Rock, you get lots of chances, uh, in wrestling to make it, and I wanna say Naya Jackson is one of the Rock's cousins. Um, I did, so the last thing I want to say about the women's ladder match, people were so happy that Chelsea Green won. And that was really cool to see. Like, it was very obvious that they went with the crowd on this. Like they, they will, will Chelsea Green have the best matches coming out of this? Probably not, but like people were genuinely happy, and it's nice to give people what they want. OK, let's talk about human monies on a pole match, Danhausen versus Dominic.

1:23:41 Ricardo Lopes: Oh, OK, so look, the thing is, I find Vanhausen to be funny. I mean, I, I like his sort of sketches slash promos. I like that, but I don't think that they should be doing Dominic Mysterio this dirty. I mean, come

1:24:00 Neal Hebert: on. I think Dominic. Like we said earlier, is a, is one of the best natural heels I've ever seen. And apparently in AAA, he's being booked as like a, a serious wrestler, and he, he's not booked like that in WWE. Um, I like him from what I saw. I thought, I don't know, Michael Cole called Dan, no, someone called Dan Han on commentary a pale theater kid, and as a, a formerly pale theater kid, you know, it's not an insult, um. To me, I don't care for Danhausen. Um, I, I believe the, the comment I wrote is, I'm looking at my phone, sorry, Danhausen to me is the face of wrestling and shittification. Um, HE is, he's, it's very obvious they are bleeding every bit of money they can get out of his merch sales out of him. They're going to shove him down your throat until you're sick of him.

1:24:53 Ricardo Lopes: But, but, but, but you know what, I'm going to tell you something because I, I have one very specific perspective on this. I, I mean, it's not my own perspective, but I got my parents into wrestling, and they are, and they are Portuguese, and they don't speak a word of it. English, so they

1:25:09 Neal Hebert: likenhausen,

1:25:10 Ricardo Lopes: but they still, but they still watch the wrestling, and I mean, they like Vanhausen because for particularly for people who do not speak English. I mean, Danhausen is, is funny.

1:25:23 Neal Hebert: The physical humor is something that translates. So I talk about that in my, my dissertation, um, when we talk about, is it, I think it's erotetic narratives, but one of the reasons wrestling is so beloved. Worldwide is that it does not presuppose fluency in English. Um, AND because of that, and that's why Marvel movies are so big, uh, the philosopher Noel Carroll talks about that in philo in the ontology of mass art, which is one of my favorite works of aesthetics of the last 30 years. And he says like, he doesn't talk about wrestling and, in particularly, he talks about movies and horror and things like that, but anything that can transcend the assumption of. Literacy is going to be more widely appreciated, and that's integral to his concept of mass art. And I think wrestling absolutely fits that. Um, AND to his credit, he does too. He responds to some of his critics in, uh, the Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism when they're like, according to Noel Carroll, WWE SmackDown would be art. And he wrote in his response, well, I guess so. He's like, I don't watch it, but if it's, it's, it's what you described, it probably is. It probably is a good example of mass art. So I can see why Dan Han is for people. The thing I thought is like, um, he's probably like Jerry Lewis, uh, very, he'd be very big in France. And, um, if you like physical humor, that that you don't require a translation for that. Um, I personally got sick of Dan Han in AEW. So, you know, him going to WWE, I know he's friends with CM Punk, and, and they're making a lot of money off of him, and I'm very happy that he gets to live this life. I'm, I'm a fan of him as a person. Uh, I'm just watching him wrestle his, that is not the draw for me. Um,

1:27:04 Ricardo Lopes: YEAH, I mean, I mean, again, the, the, the thing that really bothered me the most about this is them putting Dominic Mysterio in the mix. I mean, I, he doesn't deserve to be treated like that.

1:27:15 Neal Hebert: Anyone put in the ring with Danhausen is going to be a joke, um, is the problem, and there are people that can withstand being a joke, and typically those are people that you don't think can make money. And I think Dominic Mysterio can make money. Um, THERE'S a saying in wrestling, I think Jim Cornett is the one who quoted it first in a shoot interview. He says, funny isn't money. As a rule, comedy can work on the card, but it can't work as the main event of the card. So, anyone you put in a comedy situation is being intentionally put in a position where they cannot draw money. And for Dominic Mysterio, I think he could make money. Um, I think that I don't know what his ceiling is, but it is higher than it currently is in WWE. Um, I think that A lot like his, uh, I was gonna say a lot like his dad, and storyline, for people that don't know, his biological father is Eddie Guerrero. Um, THAT was a storyline that they did when Dominic was a was a very young child. Uh, I called it the Dominic Mysterio on a pole match where the winner gets custody of Dominic between Rey Mysterio and Eddie Guerrero. But the great thing about a young Eddie Guerrero is when he walked out, and I, I would teach wrestling in my theater classes. I would show them Rey Mysterio versus Eddie Guerrero from Halloween Havoc 1997. And the moment Eddie Guerrero walks out, you know, he's the bad guy. And Dominic Mysterio has that same quality. I don't think I could ever cheer for him. Um, BUT there is a lot of value in having someone that when they walk out, you immediately know you need to boo. There's that's appropriate for wrestling, and I think that's, that's really good. So I'm with you, Dominic. He deserved better, at least they didn't pin him, right? Like it's a human human monies on a pole match, so Danhausen won by grabbing the human monies off the pole, so Dominic did not get pinned, he just got beat up by little people, um, and then, then his stablemate from Judgment Day came out who Is it much bigger than the little people in terms of heights? Yeah,

1:29:19 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, JD McDonough, I mean the entire judgment, they think, I mean they should have ended it long ago. I mean, also because at this point originally it was. Edge, Damien Priest, Finn Beller and Rhea Ripley, and they were all badasses, and Judgment Day is a very good name for a group with those people, but with the goofy guys that we have now in judgment, oh come on, come on, it, I don't, it doesn't make sense anymore.

1:29:50 Neal Hebert: I like uh. I, I like the concept of Judgment Day. I haven't seen the newest incarnation. I am familiar with the Edge version just from listening to reviews of shows, and it sounds like it was initially a group of people that was very serious, and now it sounds like it's a group of people that is more there for the entertainment aspects of the show.

1:30:09 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, and, and, and because of that, the name Judgment Day doesn't even make sense anymore. So yeah,

1:30:16 Neal Hebert: yeah. So let's talk Chad Gable versus Penta. Yeah. I thought that match could have been the best on the show, if it had been 5 to 7 minutes longer. I thought it was very good as it was, but it felt like right when they were really cooking, they had to go to the finish, um, and yeah,

1:30:35 Ricardo Lopes: because they are both great in ring performers. I mean, in ring they're great.

1:30:39 Neal Hebert: When they said on commentary that Chad Gable has never held a singles title in WWE, I was like, what an indictment of WWE to have someone that's this caliber of wrestler.

1:30:50 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, YEAH, and do, and do you know what the funniest thing here is that. I think that they were forced to push, to give a push to Chad Gable just because of the incredible match match he

1:31:05 Neal Hebert: had

1:31:05 Ricardo Lopes: as as uh El Grande Americano, the original against, uh, oh my God, what's the, the original name of the guy, he was Tiffany Stratton's boyfriend, er

1:31:16 Neal Hebert: Ilya Dragov. No, no, it's

1:31:18 Ricardo Lopes: not Ilya Dragonov, it's, he was together with he was together with Gunter. Yeah, Ludwig, yeah, I mean that match was awesome, but it was put together by the Undertaker.

1:31:30 Neal Hebert: Yeah, so, I mean, people can say what they want about the Undertaker, but his ability to put together a big match is really impressive. Um, I think the problem with Undertaker is Undertaker came in and got injured very young. He'd been talking about retiring due to injuries starting in 1997. Like that's how long Undertaker was injured, and he then, then he had the career renaissance on SmackDown with Kurt Angle. That was when I was really passionate about watching. And uh it was really fun. But yeah, once he's in there with good guys and not put in there with, you know, kind of crappy guys like Giant Gonzalez and uh all the, all the people in the 90s

1:32:11 Ricardo Lopes: King Kong Bundy,

1:32:13 Neal Hebert: he's got the psychological aspects of wrestling down pat. He understands it. Yeah. So, you know, Chad Gable's great, um, Penta, I loved an AEW. I thought it was time for him to jump, um. When he jumped, and I think that he fits in with WWE much better than Ray Phoenix does. I think he, I think Penta should have jumped, and Ray Phoenix probably should have stayed in AEW, um, and they'd both be about where they should be, cause Ray Phoenix had a lot of upside as a main eventor or high flyer in AEW that, but WWE doesn't value that, but Penta's character work is so good. And so like, it comes across in a big stadium. Also, Pina's daughter wants to be a wrestler, and I think going to WWE gives her an in with the Performance Center, which is the best place to train her. So for Penta's career and his family, it made a lot of sense for him to jump, um, but, you know, like Pina wanted to be a single star, um, and Ray Phoenix is now talking about wanting to get their tag team back together because Ray Phoenix is not on TV. So I, I get that, um, but yeah, I thought that was a, I thought that was a pretty good match. It would have been better if it was longer. It's the only, probably the only match that I would say that about on SummerSlams tonight.

1:33:28 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, and I agree with you. I think if it was 78 minutes longer, it would have probably been the best match. Of the entire, the entire two nights.

1:33:38 Neal Hebert: Yeah, I feel like if they'd have given more time to it, you really could have allowed them to sell a bit more and, um, you know, because they were, they were actually going too fast. It's the only match I would say that about because they knew they only had 11 minutes. They had to get all their stuff in. And if they'd had just a little bit of room to breathe, I think by the end that could have been something. Um, WELL, we're on the main event, Seth Rollins versus Roman Reigns, and I wanna say, OK, so the last time I saw Roman Reigns, he was being shoved down our throats as the top guy, despite the crowd rejecting it. Yeah, he comes out looking like the top guy and the crowd accepts him, so that's, that's really good that, that's, yeah,

1:34:23 Ricardo Lopes: you know, I'm going to say fortunately they treated Obafemi the opposite way, and the people love him because they could have done the same thing with Obafemi and just tried to push him down people's throats.

1:34:38 Neal Hebert: That's the difference between Vince McMahon and Paul Leveck as a, as a creative writer, I guess, is that he's not going to. You know, shut, he's gonna let the guy get over organically before risking the crowd preemptively rejecting him like they did with Roman, cause that could have gone really bad. It was bad, I think it was bad for Roman's career that he had to fight against the crowd because he was pushed too hard too soon, um, but he comes out here looking amazing, like he He, his entrance was probably my favorite of all the nights, cause it was kind of simple. It was just a big dude coming out, being shown to advantage, and I'm like, oh, this guy is a big deal. This guy, this guy is like, clearly the champion, he's who I'm supposed to care about. I assumed he was the baby face, that was wrong. Um, AND then Seth Rollins, you know, when Seth Rollins came out, what did I write? Um, Seth Rollins' outfit is ugly. Um, IT, it looks like if you asked a seven year old child to draw with a pack of crayons, an entrance outfit for a wrestler, um, and it looks like that the that the costumer took that drawing and made it. He was just, it was like the worst of John Cena with the primary colors, but dressed in a way that no one could take seriously. So I assumed he was the heel, because I was like, no babyface would dress like that. Um, I was wrong, it turns out. But, um, a thing I noticed at the pre, at the pre-match, um, They used a lot of the camera angles that they use in the WWE video games, and I don't know if that's an instance of the show imitating the game or the game imitating the show. But uh, for that match, maybe my rural broadband was really good, but it was in ultra high def. It almost looked like a video game in terms of the, the resolution, it was gorgeous. So I'm watching and I'm like, the, the line between the video game simulation and the product in WWE is very narrow now, in a, in a way that I think is unprecedented. Um. I also, what did I say? Um, I don't like them having a full conversation mid-match. Um, I also, I watched the angle with John Cogburn, uh, 12 years ago that started that match. John came over to my house that I was in grad school. School and John uh needed a night away from, from the fam, so he wanted a boys' night. So we, he came over to my house, we watched the angle, and it was like, cool. So I didn't have a nostalgia for that angle the way a lot of people do, but I, I was also much older than a lot of people were when that angle happened. So I get that. Um, BY the end of the match, the finisher reversal sequences, I thought were really good. Um, I did think when Rollins did the slow walk to get the chair, it was too slow, it was like, yeah, and, and, and Michael Cole telling me, he's going to get the chair, just like 12 years ago that started this whole thing. It's, I'm, maybe a new fan would need to know that, but I actually think if you don't say everything. Um, YOU can really allow the moment to speak for itself. Um, BUT the last thing I wrote on my phone is, who is the good guy in this match? Because at the end, I realized I had no clue. Yeah, and that's OK. I don't know, this was, this was fun. What did you think of the match?

1:38:05 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, I, I mean, it was, it was a, a good match, I guess that the storyline was there as well. It's just that. I mean, even when compared to the other big championship match which was called the Rhodes versus Siampan, I mean, I think. I preferred Goldie Rhodes versus Sim Pancono.

1:38:27 Neal Hebert: I think I preferred Rains and Rollins, um, but, but I liked both matches, so it's not, that's not me saying one is bad and one was good. It was just like, I think I liked Rollins reigns better.

1:38:37 Ricardo Lopes: And then again, the other thing that you mentioned earlier, uh, I, I mean, I, I really get pissed. Of when they don't want to mention other wrestlers like in that case, John Moxley slash Dean Ambrose because that that last moment where they put their fists together, I mean they could have mentioned it

1:39:00 Neal Hebert: because they did it, you saw they did it like kind of like this and the third fist was. Not there. And that to me was powerful. And they did not mention it. And I was like, oh, OK, cool. So it's like, it's, it's almost like, to me, subtlety and wrestling needs to be kind of like an Easter egg in a video or a movie or something like that, where there are messages for the people that are deeply invested in the fandom. That aren't apparent to people that aren't, but the product is enjoyable to both. And I know that's a big thing with Marvel movies and things like that. I think wrestling could use more stuff like that, where, you know, you, you have the, the, the references that are there for the diehards, but the product still works for the people that are watching live. And I think the WWE model, they're So worried people are going to miss the nuance. They don't have subtext, they just have text. Anything that's subtextual has to be stated by an announcer to confirm that the audience is reacting correctly. And I get that that's what they're going for. I just don't care for that part of the production. But if you're, if you're appealing to kids that don't have a Sense of history. I understand why that's necessary. But with the WWE network on ES is it ESPN? I, I don't know. Y'all get it on Netflix because y'all are international. I had to sign up for ESPN, uh, streaming for 30 bucks to get it in the United States, uh, which is how much I love the dissenter, right, that I, I spent money to do the podcast on my own, my own hard earned money. And, uh, you know, it, it was cool. Um, I, I appreciate that I'm watching wrestling differently than the people they're targeting just because I'm 45, and I've been watching for 33 years. So, you know, that, that to me, my fandom is gonna be different than their fandom, just like the, the thing I said about how not having nostalgia for the, the angle that started the Shield breakup. I remember it, but I was a pretty jaded fan by that point, and And I thought the standout member of the Shield was Dean Ambrose, not Roman Reigns and not Seth Rollins. So to me, it, it felt like the wrong guy turned, uh, but, you know, it is, it is what it is, and I get that they're trying to appeal to kids and that they're almost like the, they want that cycle of kids watching wrestling to continue, and because those kids don't have a sense of history about it yet. They have to make the history relevant in the present. So I do, I do get that. It's just a stylistic thing that I don't prefer. How do you feel about the, the, the text versus subtext?

1:41:36 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, YEAH, I, I, I mean, the, the thing is, uh, I have, uh, of course, I, I don't come at wrestling, uh, analyzing it the same way that you do because I don't, I don't have the same, uh, intellectual tools that you have. I mean, I'm just, uh, um, an intellectual guy with an interest in wrestling, and I'm more, I, I'm more, I'm more from the social sciences than, uh

1:42:03 Neal Hebert: you're what Ramsci

1:42:04 Ricardo Lopes: would call

1:42:04 Neal Hebert: an organic intellectual.

1:42:09 Ricardo Lopes: But, but, but, but I mean, I, I understand why WWE does some, uh, some of the things the way they do, but I mean, the main criticisms I have of WWE, we have already laid them out here during our conversation today, but, so, but that's the perspective of a longtime fan who, who watched, I mean, in retrospect, the attitude era, and I was, I became a fan during the Ruthless aggression era and all I like Ruthless aggression a lot, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I mean it's just that. Some things you can't avoid making comparisons and um back then they were just better.

1:42:55 Neal Hebert: Well, and I'm looking forward to talking about AEW all in with John if John can make it, because John does not watch AEW regularly, so he'll be the me, um, pointing out the stuff that doesn't make sense, and I'm probably gonna complain about how long the show is. Like, I'm just a spoiler. AW shows are awesome, but, but they're long, and I'm very,

1:43:14 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, yeah, that's, that's one thing that 11 criticism that I have. I'm, I, I mean, it's, it's a, it's not too much, but it's a bit too much,

1:43:26 Neal Hebert: you

1:43:26 Ricardo Lopes: know.

1:43:26 Neal Hebert: Yeah, it, it, I mean, it's almost like complaining like, oh my God, don't give me $1000 like, don't give me all this great wrestling. So I appreciate that we get all the great wrestling, but I had to tell my wife, and, and, and so I also stream about D&D with a friend of mine who's a voice actor and professional dungeon master. So I had to tell him like, dude, we stream on Sunday nights, I'm like, the night of AEW all in, I am going to be fried. Like, even though the show is happening in the middle of the day, uh, Central Standard Time, it's gonna be 6 hours of locking in, and I'm gonna be fried afterwards because it's just. That's how the pace of that show is. Even when I was at last year's All In Live, uh, my wife and I, we drove back home after the show. It was a 4 hour drive. We were wrecked. Like we, we were scared. I had to take over driving the last 20 minutes because she was about to fall asleep at the wheel. We were so exhausted. And that's just because when you've got a show that long, and the, the booking philosophy, so, an overall comment about, about the way WWE promotes shows is they make sure the show peaks at the main event, and the way they do that is, they don't allow other matches to be as good as the featured match is going to be. Which is one philosophy of promoting. So frequently there'll be a good match, then there'll be a match that takes you down a bit, then there'll be a good match, then they'll kind of let you rest. Then there's the bathroom break, the match that no one cares about, blah, blah, blah. AEW doesn't do that. They start off and everyone is trying to have the best match you've ever seen on the show. And while it's wonderful, it can be exhausting because your adrenaline is gonna crash at some point during it. I used to, uh, when I saw it chapter 2, which I don't know if you're a horror movie fan. I'm a huge horror movie fan. I thought the It movies were great, but the second It movie had so many jump scares, my adrenaline was done by the end of the movie. I jumped scared 30+ times, and just my body physically couldn't handle it. And sometimes with those 6 hour shows, that's how it is. If you're up for every match, like, Your body physically, like, we have to understand, and I'm a theater person, so we talk about this, Audiences are people, audiences have bodies. There are bodily functions that need to happen. There are like physical changes that go on when you watch a show. There are group dynamics, there's yada yada yada. So, you know, AEW as good as as it is, they do not pay attention to the biological needs of their fans, like, they do not give us bathroom breaks. Uh, THEY don't do any of that. So by the end, you're gonna be dead tired.

1:46:04 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, no, but, but look, uh, I have to say, and also because we have to wrap up our conversation, I have to say that, uh, for WWE standards nowadays, uh, SummerSlam was really a good pay per view.

1:46:22 Neal Hebert: I thought, um, you know, it, it, it really, if I had seen that pay per view when I was 12. That was significantly better than the pay per views of the 90s, until, even including the attitude era, honestly, the attitude era would typically have good main events, but the undercard wouldn't be that hot. But this show was very, like, if you only watch WWE or mainstream wrestling, it's excellent. Um, IF you watch other promotions, and I've seen other ways of promoting wrestling, you can have quibbles with it, but if, if you're just a WWE fan, you are very well served by that pay per view. And it was, it was fun, um, it was, it was fun. It was just, you know, uh, two nights of SummerSlam is a lot. Uh, IT was like watching one AEW show, so.

1:47:09 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but, but about the undercard from the attitude era, I have to say that the matches, the in-ring usually wasn't good, but the characters were still awesome.

1:47:21 Neal Hebert: So it was more like a variety show. Um, IT was kind of like hee-haw, if, if you're familiar with the, the genre of hee-haw, it was a. A country show in the 80s and early 90s on, on basic cable and it was like a variety show. Um AND sometimes you'd get one thing, sometimes you'd get skits, sometimes you'd get songs. That's

1:47:39 Ricardo Lopes: how, but the thing is back then, even the undercard characters were great, yeah.

1:47:47 Neal Hebert: I mean, the gang, they did gang warfare a lot with the, the bikers versus the uh black nationalists versus the Latino factions. And yeah, that was, I mean, that looking back, it was problematic, um, but it was also very fun TV where you had groups fighting each other all the time. You had gold dust showing up being weird. Um, YOU, you, there was something for everybody back then. And I, I do think. The good thing about SummerSlam is there was something for everybody on those two nights, but I would have liked a comedy match on the first night as well. Um, I'd have liked something that was more fun, uh, because although the Danhausen stuff wasn't for me. Uh, IT does serve a purpose on the card. It, if you don't like that kind of thing, you can go to the bathroom. If you do like that kind of thing, it, it's sort of like you don't have to get so involved in the match. You can kind of just calm down, rest, be entertained, and, uh, be ready for the next intense moment. So for me, you know, I would have liked to have seen a little bit more comedy on night one. But you know, it was fun. I had a good time.

1:48:54 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, OK, so maybe let's wrap up the interview. We've been here for almost 2 hours here, and I hope to be able to review all AEW all in in early September, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully with John Cockburn joining us and Maybe then we will have enough time for me to uh talk about my, uh, evil genius plan for Tessa Blanchard in WWE.

1:49:25 Neal Hebert: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you told me about that before we started. That sounds really good. I will exert social pressure on John to see if I could convince him to do all in. Um, WE'LL, we'll try to brace himself and get him ready for it so he can lock in. Um, BUT hopefully it'll be the three of us again. This was, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for inviting me on. I loved it.

1:49:44 Ricardo Lopes: Hi guys, thank you for watching this interview until the end. If you liked it, please share it, leave a like and hit the subscription button. The show is brought to you by Enlights Learning and Development done differently. Check their website at enlights.com and also please consider supporting the show on Patreon or PayPal. I would also like to give a huge thank you to my main patrons and PayPal supporters, Perergo Larsson, Jerry Muller, Frederick Sundo, Bernard Seyaz Olaf, Alex, Adam Cassel, Matthew Whittingbird, Arnaud Wolff, Tim Hollis, Eric Elena, John Connors, Philip Forrest Connolly. Then Dmitri Robert Windegerru Inai Zu Mark Nevs, Colin Holbrookfield, Governor, Michel Stormir, Samuel Andrea, Francis Forti Agnun, Svergoro, and Hal Herzognun, Mahel Jonathan Labrarinth, John Yardston, and Samuel Curric Hines, Mark Smith, John Ware, Tom Hammel, Sardusran, David Sloan Wilson, Yasilla Dezaraujo Romain Roach, Diego Londono Correa. Yannik Punteran Ruzmani, Charlotte Blis Nicole Barbaro, Adam Hunt, Pavlostazevski, Alekbaka, Madison, Gary G. Alman, Semov, Zal Adrian Yei Poltontin, John Barboza, Julian Price, Edward Hall, Edin Bronner, Douglas Fry, Franco Bartolatti, Gabriel P Scortez or Suliliski, Scott Zachary Fish, Tim Duffy, Sony Smith, and Wisman. Daniel Friedman, William Buckner, Paul Georg Jarno, Luke Lovai, Georgios Theophanous, Chris Williamson, Peter Wolozin, David Williams, Di Acosta, Anton Ericsson, Charles Murray, Alex Shaw, Marie Martinez, Coralli Chevalier, Bangalore atheists, Larry D. Lee Junior. Old Eringbon. Esterri, Michael Bailey, then Spurber, Robert Grassy, Zigoren, Jeff McMahon, Jake Zul, Barnabas Raddix, Mark Kempel, Thomas Dovner, Luke Neeson, Chris Story, Kimberly Johnson, Benjamin Galbert, Jessica Nowicki, Linda Brendan, Nicholas Carlson, Ismael Bensleyman. George Ekoriati, Valentine Steinmann, Per Crawley, Kate Van Goler, Alexander Ebert, Liam Dunaway, BR, Massoud Ali Mohammadi, Perpendicular, Jannaertner, Ursula Guinov, Gregory Hastings, David Pinsov, Sean Nelson, Mike Levin, and Jos Necht. A special thanks to my producers Iar Webb, Jim Frank, Lucas Stinnik, Tom Vanneden, Bernardine Curtis Dixon, Benedict Mueller, Thomas Trumbull, Catherine and Patrick Tobin, John Carlomon Negro, Al Nick Cortiz and Nick Golden, and to my executive producers, Matthew Lavender, Sergio Quadrian, Bogdan Kanis, and Rosie. Thank you for all.