#1294 Harry Reis - How to Feel Loved: The Five Mindsets That Get You More of What Matters Most

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Richard Lops, and today I'm joined by Dr. Harry Ray. He is Dean's Professor in Arts and Sciences and professor of psychology at the University of Rochester. And today we're going to talk about his book which he wrote together with Dr. Sonia Lebomirsky of the title of it is How to Feel Love, The Five Mindsets that Get You More of What Matters Most. So Dr. Roy, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure for everyone.

00:34 Harry Reis: It's, it's great to be here, Ricardo.

00:37 Ricardo Lopes: So let me start by asking you a few basic questions that maybe many people just, they take the answer for granted, but maybe as a psychologist you approach it in a or approach them in a slightly different way. So what is love? I mean, what, how do you understand that?

01:00 Harry Reis: Well, love is actually one of the trickiest words we have in, in not just the English language, but in all of our languages. Love can mean so many different things, you know, you can talk about loving a television show, you can talk about loving your mother, you can talk about loving an afternoon when you don't have any work obligations, and of course you can talk about loving somebody that uh you're in a romantic relationship with. Um, SO, you know, that, that being the case, we felt the need to be very clear about what we mean by love. And what we mean by love is, is a feeling of warmth and compassion toward another person, a feeling that um the other person is somebody who you deeply admire, deeply respect, and feel a great deal of compassion for.

01:52 Ricardo Lopes: And what is it to feel loved? I mean, what, what does that translate to translate into exactly? I mean, what is it that people feel loved? Yeah,

02:04 Harry Reis: well, you know, that's actually a kind of a tricky question to answer because feeling loved is one of those things. That people can't necessarily verbalize what they mean by feeling loved. I, uh, when you feel loved, you know it. And if you ask people, um, do you feel loved, people can tell you, I feel loved, I don't feel loved, um, but if you ask them, well, what do you mean by that, you know, that's something that philosophers like to do, of course, um, if you ask someone what they mean by feeling loved, it's a sense that another person gets you. Um, THEN another person really understands what you're all about. Um, THAT they respect and admire you, and especially that you feel that they are concerned for your well-being, that they care how things go for you, that they have compassion, uh, for you, and, um, that, and that they're essentially on your side.

03:03 Ricardo Lopes: And is feeling love a human need? I mean, is it necessarily that everyone needs to feel loved?

03:12 Harry Reis: Well, we certainly feel that that is the case, um, to be sure. There are individuals who tell you they don't need to feel loved, um, and we see that as, as a reaction to the circumstances that they may have grown up with or they may have experienced, um, but, but we see the, the, the need to feel loved as really as very important because it's the mental part that goes along with, um, with, with connection and belonging. And there's, there's a lot of work to suggest that um humans almost without exception, have a strong need to belong. Um, OVER our evolutionary history, this is one of the things that has really um helped our species survive, you know, if you, you know, think about a newborn baby, um, if a newborn baby did not have other people to care for it and to protect it, it would have no chance of surviving. And, and that's true for quite a long period of time, um, and as we get older, then the nature of that need changes, but it is no less important, so adults who don't feel a need to connect with others, who don't feel a sense of belonging, tend to not do very well, and there's lots of interesting research that shows that uh when people have strong social connection, they live longer, they're happier. Um, THEY do better, they, they, they, they do better in school or in work, um, and so, you know, the, the, the need to connect with others is, is really an essential human component, and the sense of feeling loved is the way that we tell ourselves that are, that we are that we are connected, that we do have a belonging with other people.

05:07 Ricardo Lopes: So you would say that this need there's an evolutionary basis to it.

05:12 Harry Reis: I would absolutely say that there's an evolutionary basis, and I, that's a fairly widespread idea that I think um most people, most scientists would accept that idea.

05:23 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. But I mean, the way that we feel loved, I mean, and what that means to us, do you think that it depends a little bit on our own personal experiences and this is something that we develop

05:42 Harry Reis: through our lives? Well, uh, you know, that that's, that's a great and very important point. Uh, THE way the need to feel loved comes out. Um, IS definitely a function of our experience, you know, for some people, feeling loved is about having a few distant connections, um, and some people you can hang out with, um, but not a really strong sense of, you know, that deep emotional kind of feeling. For other people, it's very much about having warm, strong connections with many other people. Um, AND it, you know, for some people it might be, um, having a really strong connection with a single partner, with, with, you know, with a, with a primary partner. For other people it might be more of being part of a social network where you are connecting with a lot of people. I think it comes out differently for different people. We know that early experiences play a role in shaping that. Um, THERE are probably other factors that contribute as well that aren't so well understood. So, so there are big individual differences and differences in the way that need plays out, but underlying all of it, the sort of common core to it, is, is, is this need to feel that like one is connected to others and that there are others who are concerned, uh, for one's welfare. You know, you, you, you could make an analogy to hunger. We, we all have a need to eat. Uh, FOR some people that means, you know, having a steak and potatoes every night. For other people that might mean eating vegetables. For still other people, it might mean, you know, snacking during the day. So the way the need to eat and fulfill one's hunger comes out is different, but underlying all of it is the need to take in calories, and we think it's the same kind of thing for the need to belong.

07:41 Ricardo Lopes: And when it comes to those individual differences, I would imagine that some of it would also have to do with maybe personality traits, right? Like, like, like for example, introversion, extroversion, things like that. Yes,

07:56 Harry Reis: absolutely. Individual differences would would play a huge part. You know, individual differences, they have genetic roots, uh, their early experience plays a huge role. For an introverted person, it might be a matter of having a small number of friends that you can spend quiet nights together with. For a more gregarious person, it could be, you know, being able to go to lots of parties, um, and, you know, make, make, making lots of noise, um, so I, I think there are lots of different ways that the need can, can play out, um, but underlying all of it is that we all have this need to connect in, in, in one form or another.

08:40 Ricardo Lopes: And what might be the costs, I mean, the psychological costs and consequences of not feeling loved?

08:49 Harry Reis: Well, not, not feeling loved has, has lots of consequences. It, it, it's, it's certainly linked to being unhappy, um, it's certainly linked to having a more difficult time accomplishing the many things that go on in life. There's, there's very nice research showing that, um, it leads people to adopt unhealthy habits, um, and it's associated with uh premature death, in fact, um, um, and, Uh, there's recently been research that shows that uh people who don't have strong social connections, uh, that the risk factors to dying prematurely are actually greater than the risk of dying prematurely due to things like smoking and obesity. Um, SO that's certainly very powerful, but more generally it, it, it simply creates a sense that one's life is not going the way that one wants, and it, it. It can create, it can create depression, it can certainly create loneliness, um, it can create a sense of what we might call quiet desperation, um, but it, it, it really, um, it creates a sense of not being fulfilled and not feeling like, like, um, life is valuable and enjoyable.

10:13 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, IN the way that it can connect to the sense of feeling lonely. I mean, when and how do people feel lonely, because, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but in my understanding, uh, being alone or spending time alone or even for more introverted people spending lots of time alone is not the same thing as feeling lonely.

10:36 Harry Reis: Right, right, well, I, I, I want to make a strong case for the idea that loneliness. In and of itself is not necessarily a, a negative emotion. Um, WHEN people feel loneliness exists because it serves a function. When people feel lonely, what many of us do is we go out and we create a connection. I feel lonely tonight. I think I'll call up my friend. I, I think I'll, I'll go, I'll go to the, the gym and talk to people there. Um, I think I'll go on a date. I think I'll call my family that lives in another city. Loneliness is a, is a way of our bodies and minds telling us that our social connection is not as good as we would like it to be, and when it stimulates going out and doing something about it, it's a very positive emotion. It's a constructive emotion. Where loneliness gets problematic. Is when it's chronic or long standing when the per a person feels lonely often. Um, CONTINUOUSLY and doesn't really have a strategy to deal with it, uh, when, when that kind of loneliness becomes chronic, that's when it starts to be a problem. Um, THAT'S when it creates difficulties for people, and loneliness over the long term is associated with just about everything bad that you can think of, uh, ranging from a higher incidence of cancer, higher incidence of heart disease. A higher incidence of depression and suicide, just about everything that that we can think of that's unhealthy and unproductive is associated with long-term chronic loneliness, but I really want to stress the point that if one feels lonely because one just moved to a new city. Or because none of one's friends are available to go out on Saturday night, that's not necessarily pathological, and that in fact that can be a very constructive emotion.

12:41 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, so it's problematic when it's really chronic,

12:45 Harry Reis: when it's chronic, um, and, and, and also especially when the person blames themselves for it, um, you know, you know, you, you can say, why do I feel lonely? Well, nobody likes me, I'm just an unlikable person. When that kind of mental state goes along with the feeling of loneliness, that's when we see all these kind of problems.

13:07 Ricardo Lopes: And uh, I mean, people recently have been talking a lot about the so-called loneliness epidemic. I mean, what is your understanding of that? Do you think that it's really an epidemic or?

13:20 Harry Reis: Well, um, you know, if I, if I take a purely empirical stance on this, uh, levels of loneliness are now higher than they've ever been since, uh, such data were, were being kept. Um, NOW that only goes back a relatively small number of years. So are people lonely lonelier now than they were in the 1600s? I have no idea. Um, BUT certainly over the past 50 years or so, uh, we've seen loneliness increase. In fact, in my classes, I, I've, I ask people questions about loneliness, and over the last few years, the level of loneliness is higher than it's ever been, um, and that goes back about 25 or 30 years. Um. The question of where that comes from is an interesting and difficult one. There are many people who would like to blame social media for it. Um, AND undoubtedly social media are a factor in it, you know, the idea there is that when people spend their time on social media, it, it's kind of a way of snacking with with social connection, but it, it's not really fulfilling. It's not a deep sense of, of connection, and so the more time one spends on social media and stays away from face to face interaction. Uh, THE more likely one is to be lonely. There was a really interesting little experiment done in a, in a couple of school districts in, in the US where what they did was, uh, uh, they took students' phones away from them during the school day. So at lunchtime, um, in the cafeteria, instead of spending time scrolling, they're actually talking to each other, um, and, and that was associated with a greater sense of well-being. Now do I think social media is the only reason for greater loneliness? No, I think that would be kind of, that would be kind of simplistic. There are many other reasons why, um, I think, you know, there's evidence that people are not joining organizations, um, as much as they used to because, you know, staying home and, and streaming television. Is uh very comfortable and very easy, um, and instead of, you know, going out and doing things with other people, there's more and more, uh, fulfillment that you can get, uh, by yourself, uh, staying home. I think that's probably a contributing factor. Some of the sense of alienation that people have, um, in, in, in our, um, cultures, you know, politically speaking, there's more and more of a sense of us, them. Um, GOING on, and that contributes to people not feeling part of their community. So I think it's multifaceted, um. But, you know, what's kind of interesting about it is that attacking the root causes of all these different things may be kind of challenging, but the advice that you can give people about what to do about this if they feel lonely is actually kind of easy. Go out and do something with other people. It's as simple as that, um, join a club, go to, go to a restaurant or a bar with friends, um, go to a church, um, join some organization, um, simply go out and socialize with other people is the first recommendation that that anyone would make, and it's usually effective.

17:01 Ricardo Lopes: Do you think that perhaps another factor that might have been playing a role here when it comes to loneliness would have to do with the way we've been organizing our cities, and I'm talking about cities because those are the places where a majority of the population lives in today, but we've been Organizing our cities in a way that there's fewer and fewer public spaces where people can easily meet without having to, uh, I mean, spend money, I mean without having to go to, I don't know, the cafes, restaurants, the shopping, or elsewhere, where they actually You have to spend money to be with other people and I mean, adding to that, the way that the economy is right now, maybe that makes some people feel a little bit of shame,

17:58 Harry Reis: I imagine. Uh, I, I, I don't know if shame is exactly the word that I would use, but I think certainly the way cities organize themselves is undoubtedly a fact. You know, I, I was in Scotland last week. And um at one night we went out to a bar and the bar was jammed with people of all different ages, all different uh socioeconomic uh strata as far as I could tell, um, and there was um Scottish folk music playing and people were talking to each other, not necessarily to the friends that they had come with, and there was a real sense of community to this. Um, YOU don't see that kind of thing in the US very much, um, and, and I think that the way that our social life has been organized has, uh, kind of locked us into our, um, into our shells. Um, ONE of my colleagues, uh, Nick Epley at the University of Chicago, has done a whole series of fascinating studies where he gives people the instruction. Um, TO talk to somebody on the subway trains. Now on subway trains, um, people don't talk to each other. Everyone's kind of locked into their shell, and if, and if you say to me, why don't you talk to the person next to you, they'll say, well, they don't want to really talk to me. Nobody wants that kind of. So, but he gave them the instruction, he told them to do it, and you know what, people enjoy it. People like it. They, they report, uh, that, that it makes them feel good. Um, SO in the in urban life, because of the kind of crowding and because of the way things are organized, we tend to lock ourselves into these little boxes, and if we go out of our way to make connections with other people, uh, that often increases people's well-being.

19:59 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. Uh, BUT earlier when you mentioned social media and said that it's basically people snacking on connection and it doesn't really serve as real connection, what makes for real connection between people?

20:19 Harry Reis: Real Real connection comes from conversation with other people, um, preferably in person, um. When people are in the, there's, um, we don't know exactly what is going on, but there are physiological processes that are triggered when people are socializing with other people. Face to face interaction, typically involving conversation with other people. Is what gets those needs fulfilled, and I want to be clear that I'm not just talking about, you know, deep empathic conversations. Those are great, and we'll probably get to talking about those, um, but I'm talking about simply ordinary conversations about the World Cup, about, about the weather, about all the little things that go on in our life. Any kind of connection like that is the beginning. Uh, TO, uh, you know, fulfilling this need to connect that we all have.

21:22 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. Uh, IN the book, you go through several different beliefs that are very common among people and that, uh, and contrast them with the, with what the science actually says about what makes one feel loved, and I think it's Very important for us to go through each of the five if only beliefs as you call them in the book, uh, to go through all of them because I think that maybe many people are not even aware that they actually have those beliefs and The consequences that they might have for their lives. So the first one is, if only I were more attractive, powerful, or successful, I would feel more loved. So what does the science actually says about?

22:10 Harry Reis: OK, so, so now we're talking about the sort of deeper connections that come when one feels like another person really values and understands and cares about you. Um, PEOPLE have all kinds of beliefs about where, about, you know, what to do and all that, and one of the strongest beliefs we have, and this I think is especially true in, in the Western world, is the idea that if I was more attractive, if I was more accomplished, if I had achieved more, other people would love me, uh, would love me more, um. You know, it's instructive to think, uh, when was the last time you walked through a cemetery and you saw on somebody's gravestone, I was beautiful and powerful. You know that what people write is, you know, things about loving and being beloved. Feeling how you're being, letting other people know that one is attractive or powerful or accomplished. It may make other people admire you. It may make other people think, wow, you know, that, that person, you know, he's really something, but it doesn't make them want to connect with you. In fact, it can often make them not want to connect with you because they're kind of intimidated by you. Um, SO, and I think it's kind of ironic that if you look at, um, so at people's postings on, uh, online dating services. They often stress, you know, oh, I, you know, I'm such a powerful person, or, and they put out a picture that makes them look really gorgeous. Well, that, you know, that may attract likes, uh, but it doesn't create the kind of warm, warm, strong connection, um, that people really need to feel loved and connected to another person.

24:00 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, AND then there are two, if only beliefs that I think go more or less together. One has to do with, oh, if only people knew more about my positive qualities and successes, or if I could make sure that they knew about that, I would feel more loved than the other one is if I could only hide my shortcomings, I would feel. More love. So I mean, it's people, basically people's fear of resenting their negative aspects and people not knowing enough about their positive qualities. So what does the science say

24:36 Harry Reis: about? Yeah, yeah, you know, that it's really great of you to put them together. You know, many people believe that in order to make a good impression on other people, you have to stress all the positive and wonderful traits you have and you have to hide your shortcomings, um, and you know what the research actually says is that as long as you're hiding your shortcomings, you can't feel really known because what, what will go on in people's mind is, well, You know, if, if they knew blank about me, then they probably wouldn't like me so much, so I'm going to hide that. And so the irony is, you know, feeling known is, is an essential component that underlies feeling loved. You have to feel like other people know the real true you, and the real true you includes the shortcomings you have. It includes the things that you don't do particularly well. It includes the things you might be embarrassed about, um, and, and until you feel that other people know those things and still love you, that's when you can feel really, that's when you can begin to develop a sense of feeling loved. Until that happens, you're always going to feel like there's a wall between you and other people, um, when they find out that I. You know, uh, you know, that I, that I'm messy when they find out that, um. Uh, I really can be rude and nasty at times. When they find those things out, that's going to turn them off. Until we can get past those things and make sure the other person knows those shortcomings, uh, there's little chance of, of feeling truly known and loved.

26:32 Ricardo Lopes: Do you think that there's, that has anything to do with people's fear of rejection or of being rejected by particular people?

26:41 Harry Reis: I think that's exactly right. Uh, PEOPLE feel that when they find out blank about me, that that's going to be the end of it, you know, this is especially true when people have, um, Committed some kind of terrible transgression earlier in their past, um, they feel like, well, if you find out that I did this, um, then, you know, that's going to be going to be the end. One of the, the stories that we tell in the book that I think is so compelling is the story of a, of a man who lived in Australia, lived a long life, um, when he died, he left a letter for his wife and children. That explained that when he was a teenager, he had murdered his parents. Um, NOW he had managed to get away, get to not be caught from this, and he had left the country, changed his name, and moved to Australia, but he obviously harbored these terrible feelings inside himself, and he was, and why did he not tell his wife this while he was alive? Well, he probably was afraid that that would turn her off and make her reject him, um, but at the same time, his need to tell her. Um, WAS so strong that he left her this note. There, there's a website that, um, listeners might find interesting. It, it's, um, it's called Frank Warren's Postscript, and it's a, it's a website where people can write in. Um, AND, and anonymously post, terrible things that they've done in their life, and, and you look at the list of things and you know, the range of things that people are afraid to tell others in their life, but yet that they're itching to get out is really kind of quite remarkable.

28:32 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. There's also this belief that, oh, if only my partner could speak my love language, I would feel more loved. I mean, this, this idea of love languages, does it have any scientific validity?

28:47 Harry Reis: Uh, YOU know, the, the love languages idea is very, very popular. Uh, I, I, I heard somebody saying the other day, um, to their partner, well, if you only spoke my love language, we'd get along better. Um, YOU know, the idea of love languages is that there are certain ways of expressing love that we all are particularly in tuned to. So for example, physical touch, words of affirmation, um, acts of service, um. The idea that matching in love languages is what makes a relationship strong is simply not an idea that has any scientific merit at all. There's, uh, you know, when, uh, Chapman first developed this idea, you know, it was a reasonable idea. It's one of those ideas that you hear and you think, oh yes, that makes sense. Um, AND so, you know, uh, people start to do that kind of thing, but what the research has shown is that Matching with somebody on love languages doesn't really accomplish anything, um, that relationships where people are matched on love languages do no better than relationships where people have different love languages, and in fact, um, really a healthy diet of love languages is what makes relationships strongest, meaning. Um, WHEN you can do all of the love languages, um, that's when relationships are stronger. We all want our partners to give us words of affirmation. We all like physical touch. We all appreciate acts of service. So, you know, instead of thinking, you know, pick your favorite and that's the one to do, and you can ignore all the rest, it is really a recipe for disaster.

30:39 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, AND finally, if only I could get my partner to love me more, I would feel more loved. I mean, what are people really trying to get with this?

30:49 Harry Reis: Yes, well, you know, a lot of, I think that a lot of people approach the question of feeling more loved. With an idea that it's on the other person. You need to do something so I can feel more loved. And, and the problem with that, and, and we know this from a great many studies in, in human motivation is trying to get another person to do something. Is a recipe for failure, um, you know, you may well get a certain act out of another person, but it will typically be, uh, accompanied by resentment. Moreover, you know, if, if I say, if I say to my partner, I need you to tell me that you love me, so my partner says, oh yes, I love you. Well, that doesn't feel right because why are they saying it? It's because I asked them to say it. I don't want to ask my partner to say it, I want my partner to spontaneously say it, um, because she wants to say it, um, so the idea that we advance in this book is that it's not about getting another person to do something, it's about creating the circumstances in which the other person will want to do something, um, and that's so, and that's where we introduce. Um, A whole series of mindsets that we think will create the kinds of interactions where that kind of feeling will emerge spontaneously from the back and forth of, of interaction.

32:25 Ricardo Lopes: Yes, and we'll go through those five mindsets in a minute, but I mean, it's interesting from what you said, it seems to me that one interesting aspect of all of this is that people, what one of the things at least that people really want from other people when it comes to feeling love is authenticity, because I mean, people. Can can try to fake it in a way till they make it. I mean fake it till they get the other person to say that they love them, but if they know that the way they achieved it was through faking and it's not authentic, then they're still bothered by it.

33:07 Harry Reis: You're absolutely right. Authenticity is really important. There there's a quote I really love, uh, that is authenticity is really important, and if you can fake it, you're in good shape, um, you know, yes, you can sometimes fake authenticity, but we all have, uh, you know, internal sensors that tell us when a person, other person's not being authentic. So unless you're a really good actor, it's very hard to fake authenticity, and we want authenticity. Um, YOU know, there are circumstances in which getting another person to do something because you asked them to do it is, is fine, um, but in the long run, and especially when it comes to feeling loved, we want that feeling to be authentic. I, I want my partner to express love for me because she really feels it, because she really cares about me. Um, AND that's genuine in her because otherwise it's just not trustworthy.

34:10 Ricardo Lopes: But what does it really mean to be yourself, because I mean that feels really intuitive and right for people to uh interact with other people as themselves to, for them to be themselves when establishing relationships, but what does that really mean?

34:31 Harry Reis: Right, yeah, um, that, that's a, that's a really good question, and, and, and here's where we have to put some nuance in, um, this discussion. Be yourself doesn't mean that the first time you go out with somebody, uh, you wear your sloppiest clothes, you, you know, you, uh, you talk about all the terrible traumatic feelings and experiences you've had, um, and you quote unquote, let it all hang out, you know, that's not what we mean by being yourself. What we mean by being yourself is that over time. You let the real you show, so you, you, you express what your true beliefs are, you show uh what things you like doing and what things you don't like doing. Doesn't mean you can't experiment with trying something the other person likes, that can actually be very, very constructive, but if you do something and you don't enjoy it, you, you know, you, you say it, so. It, it, it means not putting on a, a, a false self, not putting on a mask. Um, AND letting the true you show, um, over, over a period of time, um, so that the other person knows what, what you're really all about.

35:57 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, IN the book you also talk about the importance of reciprocity in conversation. I mean, why is that so

36:05 Harry Reis: important? Well, yeah, well, yeah, here's why, um, opening up and, and letting the real you show up, show is so important to feeling loved, um. One of the arguments we make is that the way to kick off this process is to be encouraging and enthusiastic, uh, and expressing love toward the other person. Now you may say, but wait a minute, it's not, I don't want to say I love you, I want you to say I love you. But one of the ways we do that is by kicking off the process and expressing those feelings toward another person, because that often engenders reciprocity. Reciprocity is one of the strongest rules of social behavior we have. We all do reciprocity. It's very, very common. And what we mean by reciprocity is that it is the exchange good for good, bad for bad, um, so when I open up, when I express my feelings for you, when I really listen carefully to what you have to say, when I show you that I really have affection and, and caring and warmth towards you, that often comes back, and, and the important thing to realize. Is that I can't control what you do, but I can control what I do. So if I start the process by expressing, by expressing warmth and compassion for you, very often, not 100%, but very often that will come back towards me. And so that exchange, that tit for tat kind of process. Is so important to our conversations, you know, there, there's one whole line of research that shows that if I open up about my thoughts and feelings to you in a constructive way, that will encourage you to open up, um, and, and so, you know, so it's important to realize that that's part of the normal process of social interaction.

38:16 Ricardo Lopes: In the book, you also talk about this concept of the relationship seesaw. Uh, COULD you explain it and why, what kind of understanding can people get about their relationships from these ideas?

38:33 Harry Reis: Well, the relationship seesaw is, is the more formal representation of what we've just been talking about with reciprocity. Uh, SO think about being on a seesaw, um, where part of you is submerged, meaning, and by submerged, what we mean is there are parts of you that are not seen, and there's parts of your partner that are submerged and not seen. If you lift the partner up by listening to them carefully, by showing enthusiasm for what they're saying, by showing warmth and compassion for them when they do open up. What we do is we lift them up. They will feel good. They will feel warmth. They will feel like you are really caring for them. What that does is encourage them to do the same towards you. So they will in turn lift you out of the water by listening to you, by showing enthusiasm for you, by showing compassion for you, and so it's this back and forth of I lift you up. You lift me up and, and, and together we create more uh connection and love in our relationship, again, not necessarily in one conversation, but over time.

39:52 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. So let's talk now about the five mindsets then that help us, uh, get the love we crave and you talk about the sharing mindset, uh, listening to learn mindset, radical curiosity mindset, and open heart mindset and the multiplicity mindset. I mean, could you explain them and, uh, what, uh, what is the role that these mindsets can play?

40:21 Harry Reis: Well, you know, we, we might, uh, begin to talk about this by asking what is, what is a mindset, you know, a, a mindset is a mental approach that you use when you're going into a situation. So when you're going into a conversation with another person, a mindset is, uh, the, is, is the mental framework for what am I trying to do, what am I trying to accomplish, what do I want to happen. Um, I think it's easiest to start um with the listening to learn and curiosity mindsets, um, because those are the ones that are most directly under your control. The listening to learn mindset says that you go into a conversation with the explicit goal of of really listening to what the other person has to say. This may sound simple, it's anything but simple. When most of us are in conversations, we're maybe 20% focused on what the other person is, is talking about, and then we're thinking about, you know, what am I going to say next? Uh, WHERE, where am I going? Who else is in this room? What do I have to do tonight, uh. Um, GEE, you know what color clothes are the people on the other side of the room wearing? We, we're thinking about lots of different things and we're not really focusing in on the other person. Um, THERE'S a lot of interesting research that documents how poorly we actually listen to other people, and the importance of listening is that when you really listen to the other person, when you really not just pay attention, but also encourage them to elaborate, ask questions, you know, one of the strongest things you can do and one of the simplest things you can do is when another person tells you something, you can say, tell me more. Very easy way of. Saying to them, I'm really interested in what you have to say, uh, and I really want to know more about what it means to you. That goes along with the idea of enthusiasm and curiosity, showing the other person that you're really curious about them. You really want to learn what makes them tick, what are they, you know, what are they about when they tell you about something that happened to them last week, when they tell you how excited they were about, uh, Argentina winning their semi-final World Cup game, well, you know. What about it was so exciting to you, um, you know, what about it was interesting to you, um. That's, that's a clue. I'm really interested in what you have to say. So many of us instead will say, Oh yes, I found that really exciting too, and then we'll talk about ourselves, and that communicates, I'm not really interested in what this meant to you. So you can, so the, the mindsets of, of genuine curiosity for the other person and listening to learn are the, uh, mindsets that you can use to sort of kick off this process. Along with that comes the openhearted mindset. The openhearted mindset is simply saying showing compassion toward the other person, showing that you care about the other person, showing that their welfare matters to you. I'm, I'm really happy that that made your evening so such a, such a joy, um, or if you're from England, I'm really sorry that, you know, that just ruined your evening, um, showing compassion for another person. Is essential to helping them feel loved because it's the compassion component that contributes to the feeling of being loved, so those three are sort of the mindsets that you can walk into an interaction with. What then follows and is so critical is what we call the um is the uh being open mindset, you know, the mindset of I'm going to respond when you show reciprocity. Am I going to be closed up or am I going to really tell you what's important to me. I'm, am I going to be genuine and authentic and real about things in my own experience, um, and that, of course, is the, is what makes this a dynamic back and forth kind of interaction, um. Uh, SO you have to be ready to open up. There are many people who are good listeners, um, who, but when it comes to their turn, they, they'll just shut down, you know, they, they are afraid to reveal themselves for all the reasons we've talked about, uh, earlier. Um, SO the important part here is that when it becomes your opportunity to talk about yourself, that you that you do genuinely express yourself. Um, SO that's 4 mindsets, um. The fifth one is uh one that's captured by the idea that nobody is one sided, nobody is all good, nobody is all bad. We all have multiple sides, and if you judge people solely on the basis of one aspect of them, you lose the richness and the, uh, you know, the, the full sense of, of another, of what another person is about. Uh, AND this is important not just for other, you know, the person. So when the other person tells you something really bad that they did, um, that you don't judge them harshly, that you, that you ask yourself, well, gee, maybe there was a good reason they did that, um, and you know, gee, they, you know, they may have had a bad day, but they've had good days too. Um, THOSE things go along. With uh having the same kind of of of multiple we call this multiplicity, the same kind of multiplicity toward yourself, acknowledging that you've probably done things in your past that you're embarrassed by, and they don't define you, you have weaknesses, you have times when you feel vulnerable, and accepting those and letting the other person see those is just as important as accepting and recognizing them, recognizing them in the other person.

46:57 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, BUT should we be selective in terms of the people we apply these mindsets with?

47:04 Harry Reis: Of course, um, you know, should you open up fully to everybody you come across? No. Um, YOU know, if you're standing next to someone on, on, on the bus. Um, YOU know, should you, uh, tell them about the, you know, the terrible interaction you had with your boss yesterday? No, I don't think you should do that. Um, BUT, you know, not everybody needs or wants to feel loved by everybody. Um, WE, we tend to reserve the, the. The necessity, the importance of feeling loved to a relatively small number of people in our lives. This is often our romantic partner, this is often our children, um, this is often family members, this is often a best friend, but it can be other people too, um, you know, uh, it can be, you know, uh, people that one is in a group with, there's a sense that people, um, even that one works with often, um, can be in this situation, and I think. It's important to be choosy about who one opens up with, um, I think, but at the same time I would say there are elements of this process that one can use universally, um, so, you know, really listening to learn, for example, is something you can apply with everybody, um, in, in your life when students come to talk, uh, to me. You know, I can show them that I'm really listening with curiosity to what they're saying, even though it's not a particularly deep conversation or connection. So I think there are elements of this that one can use universally, but I think, you know, in its fullest form, it's something that one wants to be selective about who one chooses to use it with, and I guess the, the, the, you know, the, the complimentary idea to that. Is the idea that sometimes you're gonna try these things. And they're not going to work. Mhm. Well, if they don't work, that tells you this is not somebody that you're going to feel loved with, and in that case, um, you know, move on, find somebody different.

49:23 Ricardo Lopes: When it comes to opening up specifically, because that's something that really worries many people, I mean, when should I open up, when shouldn't I open up, and to what extent should I open up with, with other people? I mean, what are the correct ways and the wrong ways of doing it?

49:46 Harry Reis: Well, it's easier to describe the wrong ways, so I'll start there. You know, the wrong way is to open up about everything in one's life in the 1st 30 minutes that one is talking to somebody. Uh, IN the book we call this trauma dumping, um, you know, the idea that, um, if you're on a, let's talk about the romantic context, you're on a first date with someone, you'll talk about your traumatic childhood. Uh, THAT'S probably a bad idea. Um, PEOPLE who do this kind of research like to talk about, um, this in terms of the peeling of an onion. Um, IF we think about an onion, there are the superficial outside layers, and then there are the layers, uh, inside. When we get to know another person, we're gradually getting, you know, one layer at a time, deeper and deeper and deeper. So you want to be doing two things. You want to be graduated in the way you do this, meaning you want to slowly open up, um, at the same time, you also want to pace yourself according to where the other person is at. So I might open up a little. You might open up a little, uh, that encourages me to open up a little more, that encourages you to open up a little more. If I open up a little bit and you don't return that, that's a signal to me, you know, hold back, this isn't quite working. Sometimes this unfolds really fast. Sometimes it may take, you know, weeks, uh, to, to do this. Um, SO, um, the important thing. Is to be really mindful of what's going on in the relationship so that one can not. Uh, NOT delve too deeply too soon because that's going to be, um. That's going to be a real turnoff. We've all had the experience of sitting on an airplane and having the person sitting next to us start talking about something horrible, um, you know, their divorce or something terrible in their life, and, you know, the immediate reaction to that is, oh my God, why is this person, why is this person telling me this? I don't even know them. Um, SO that doesn't work. It's much more important to do it in a, in a slow, gradual kind of way.

52:10 Ricardo Lopes: So I mean when it comes to sharing information about ourselves with other people, I imagine that there's two opposite kinds of mistakes that we can make and of course depending on the person, the Relationship we have with them or the relationship we want to develop with them and the circumstances. I mean, there are situations or cases where we might be under sharing and other cases where we might be oversharing.

52:40 Harry Reis: That's right. And, and the research that a lot of people have done shows exactly that, um, you know, judging. What's the right amount of of opening up is really it's a social skill. It takes a lot of experience to learn how to do that, um, and you know, sometimes one might make a mistake, um, at it, but definitely, you know, not opening up enough or opening up too much, um, can backfire, can backfire, is likely to backfire.

53:14 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. So these 5 mindsets we went through just a few minutes ago, uh, do they apply in different ways to different kinds of close relationships, like, for example, romantic relationships, relationships with family, friendships, and so on, or can we apply them the same to different kinds of close relationships?

53:39 Harry Reis: Uh, THAT, that, that's a wonderful question. Um. It, it may sound like this is something that one should limit to uh close relationships, but in fact, I think it's something that can be applied across the board, um. Certainly listening and curiosity are things that are absolutely important to almost any kind of connection in which you want to build a sense of warmth and a sense of of belonging. Uh, MULTIPLICITY certainly applies across the board, and interestingly enough, the openhearted applies across the board, um, as well. Showing compassion for all the people we encounter in our lives, not just, um, you know, our romantic partners. I, I had a colleague once, um, who really had a reputation of being mean and nasty, um, he was, you know, he would yell at secretaries, he would yell at other students. When his children came in, all of a sudden he was the sweetest, warmest person you could ever want to see. So he was practicing open heart but only toward his children, and as a result, his other relationships were really, you know, hostile and and and and not and destructive. Um, THERE'S no reason why you can't be compassionate towards uh most of the people that you encounter in your life. Now, um, the one where this gets a little tricky is the one about opening up about yourself, uh, the sharing mindset, um. It's not necessarily appropriate to share about every aspect of your life with everybody you come into contact with. Um, ONE of the things I've been impressed by is, uh, when, uh, football players talk about how they feel about their teammates, and they talk about how much they love them. Um, NOW, does that mean that they feel the same way towards their teammates that they feel towards their, their romantic partners? I don't think so. I think it means that in a limited domain, they feel like they can share their thoughts and feelings in, in a fully and authentic way. So you can share how you feel about how the game is going, you can share how you feel about the coach, you can share about things that might make your workout more effective. Um, COLLEAGUES at work can share how they feel about work and share about parts of their ideas that they're struggling with and parts that they think are, are, are good. So I think the sharing mindset sometimes is more domain limited, um, than some of the others. But the others I think apply across the board, you know, you, you can be a good listener and you can be openhearted towards your barista when you're getting coffee.

56:47 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. So earlier we've talked about individual factors. How about culture? Can culture play a role in people's ability to feel loved?

57:00 Harry Reis: Um, Yeah, that's, that's a very interesting question, and there's a lot of work going on right now that's trying to get at that question. I don't think culture changes the fact that people want to feel loved. I do think that culture can play a major role in how that need is expressed and how that need is fulfilled. So in certain cultures, for example, um, emotional openness is discouraged. Um, COMPASSION is expressed in a very, the openhearted mindset is expressed in a very different way, you know, in, in, in, in the Western world, we express the openhearted mindset by giving big hugs, by being very affectionate, by kissing someone, and, you know, we're very out front about it. In East Asian cultures, people are much more reserved about that, uh, you know, you would never meet somebody on the street and, uh, you know, and give them a big hug unless it was your sister or someone, uh. So people are, people are still expressing compassion and and openheartedness toward each other, but they're not doing it in such a um a a visible, um, expressive kind of way. So it's much more subtle, um, sharing, I think, uh, comes out a little different too, you know, in an East Asian culture, being too open about difficult things in one's lives. Might be perceived as burdensome to the group as as problematic for the group, and so one must be much subtler about the way that uh those kinds of needs are expressed. So I think there are differences in the way these things come out. I think, I think the general ideas are the same, but the specifics can often uh look different.

59:05 Ricardo Lopes: But does, uh, uh, uh, that does not necessarily mean that people from those cultures because they are not so expressive that they feel less

59:16 Harry Reis: loved. Uh, uh, I don't think it means that they feel less loved. In fact, uh, there's some reason to believe that they may feel more loved. Um, um, THERE'S some work that we did many years ago in, uh, Hong Kong. That showed that people were much less outgoing about their emotions in in conversation, but at the same time they felt more understood by the people, by their families in particular, and the reason is that because is that in the Western world we feel like we, if we don't, if we're not expressing it all the time, it may not be real. Whereas in Hong Kong, we think it was part of people's lives, uh, and people just feel known and, and valued by, by their families. So, so, so it can often be more of of an implicit sense in those cultures.

1:00:18 Ricardo Lopes: Um, HOW about, uh, gender differences, because there's these gender stereotypes that we have that, I mean, uh, men, uh, uh, feel less need to feel loved, that women feel more need to feel loved, that, um, women are. More emotional, men are less emotional. I mean, is that really true and that does that really translate into the need to feel loved?

1:00:47 Harry Reis: Uh, YEAH, you know, that that's a, that's an age-old question and, and people have been doing research on this for years and years and years. Um, I don't think there's any question that the need to feel loved is important to men and to women, um. Is there a difference on average? I don't know, but if there is a difference, it's likely to be very small. Now, having said that. I think it's also very clear that women, in at least in the Western world, feel loved to a much greater extent than men do. You know, there's a lot of interesting research about midlife men living lives of what's called quiet desperation. The idea that they don't feel loved as much as they want to, you know, why, why is suicide so much more prevalent among men than among women, and I think one of the reasons for that is precisely what you mentioned, the idea. That women are much more likely to engage in these 5 in conversations using these 5 mindsets than men are. Men, you know, men are worried about expressing vulnerabilities to other men for fear of being exploited. Men have adopted social norms that you're not supposed to open up, that you're supposed to show strength, um, that and. One of the problems in that is that um men start to feel that other people don't know them. Um, ONE of the most interesting phenomena that I've noticed over the years is, um, if you ask a woman. Who's your best friend, who really knows you well, um, who would you go to for emotional support? Roughly speaking, about half of women will name, uh, their romantic partner, their husband. If you talk to men, they will all name their wife. Um, AND, and furthermore, if you ask, even if you ask men, um, in their 50s and sixties who's your best friend, they'll name somebody from high school. Um, YOU know, men develop close relationships, uh, later in life to a far, far less extent than women do, and that may be one of the reasons why, you know, there's really interesting work on bereavement. That shows that. Um, AFTER the death of a spouse, men are far more likely to remarry and to remarry sooner than women are, and there are a lot of explanations for that, but one of them is that men are looking for a source of support, a source of someone that they can have emotional support from, whereas women are, are much more likely are relatively more likely to get that from other women as well.

1:03:57 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. So, one question that I think is very relevant to our current context, do you think that we can find real connection with AI chatbots?

1:04:10 Harry Reis: Uh, THAT'S, you know, that's such a hot topic right now, you know, every, everybody's thinking about, I was just at a conference and there were like 5 different papers on that topic, um. The, the short story I think is that um. Chatbots are very good at providing validation and affirm affirmation. One of the reasons chatbots are so good at it is that they've been trained on the research that we're talking about. So, you know, a chatbot knows how to be validating. It doesn't have its own needs that might get in the way, and it can tell you, wow, that was so important, you know, I can see how hard that was for you. They can do that easily. Now Somewhere down the road. You're going to realize. That that's not a voluntary choice that the chatbot made, that it's something that it was programmed to do. So, you know, if I tell you about a problem I'm having and you tell me about how much compassion you have for that, and you really do that convincingly. I, uh, my mindset is Ricardo really cares about me. Or at least that Ricardo's a really caring person. What's my inference, if I think about it, about the chatbot? It's, oh, there's an algorithm that did that. Now it does it really well and we're all, we all, our brains are primed to, to, you know, to respond to that simulated content in a really strong way. So I think the answer is in the short term. If one is having a difficult time and other people are not meeting one's needs, I think, I think they play, they can play a valuable role. In the long term, I think it can't work, um, because in the long term, there is a case going on in the US now where a woman is trying to marry her chatbot, uh, legally marry, and it's, and I don't know what the courts are going to decide, but it's an interesting kind of question because, you know, because the, the chatbot isn't going to, the chatbot isn't going to start telling you about its own problems and give you a chance to respond. Unless it makes stuff up. And you know, it might make stuff up, but then you realize you're giving, you're giving feedback to something that's not real, um, so at some point it becomes, it becomes false. It's like, you know, if you're really hungry, eating some candy may satisfy your hunger in the short term, but does it provide a full nutritional meal? No, you can't live on candy. Um, SO, in the short term, yes, and, and, and as a bridge, and even as a teaching tool, by the way, um, you know, for people who are really not good at this, uh, for example, um, You know, individuals with learning disabilities or or autism who really don't know how to do these kind of interactions, it can be very useful as a training tool. But I think ultimately it has to be transferred to a a real live human being.

1:07:41 Ricardo Lopes: So I have one last question then in the context of your book and the topics we talked about here today, um, what do you think about polyamory and other types of consensual non-monogamous relationships?

1:08:02 Harry Reis: Uh, ANOTHER interesting question, uh, and timely question, um. In principle, I see no reason why all of the things we talk about can't go on in polyamorous relationships as well. There's some preliminary evidence for that. There's not a lot of good research on consensual non-monogamy yet. There's some research, and it suggests that. Um, IF those kind of relationships are done openly and honestly, um, there's no reason why they have to be any different, um, than the kinds of relationship we, we talked about. Now, And and one of the most interesting sets of findings for me is how. Polyamorous relationships can be satisfying and fulfilling and committed at the same time that there's a good amount of jealousy, um, you know, and being open about the jealousy is an essential component to making them work. Um, NOW, but this only works. The key word here is consensual. This only works if all of the people who are participating genuinely feel this way, um, and, and there's some evidence that sometimes people who are committed, who are participating in polyamorous relationships are doing so because they feel pressured, uh, by their partner to do that, and in those instances, um, it's not going to work.

1:09:36 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, I mean, do you, there are, I've heard criticisms from people who are, I mean, I don't want to say they are necessarily against polyamory and nonconsensual monogamy, but they criticize them where they say that, for example, they or they argue that in Polyamory relationships, the kind of connection that you can build with people, it can never be as deep as it is in a monogamous long-term relationship. I mean, do you think that there could be something to that?

1:10:18 Harry Reis: Well, you know, what I would say is that that's an empirical question, you know, that we need to do the research to test that out. So far, the research that I've seen says that that's not true. Um, uh, YOU know, I'll point out that many monogamous romantic relationships really struggle with closeness, really struggle, you know, uh, you know, the divorce rate is still hovering around, you know, 47, 48% in, in most parts of the, of the, of the Western world at least. Um, SO, you know, I would say it's not working so well in monogamous relationships, uh. You know, it's too soon to tell, but you know, there's no a priori reason to think that polyamorous relationships are going to be any more problematic than uh monogamous relationships, to be sure there's more going on, there's more that has to be negotiated, there's more, you know, you spend time, you know, with one person, well, is the other person going to be jealous, um, that. That can be problematic, but, you know, the, the question is going to be, do, uh, polyamorous relationships endure over time that are fulfilling at the same rate as monogamous relationships, and I, I think there's no reason to think it's going that they're going to be any worse, um, if, if, if they're voluntary and, and truly um open with with each other.

1:12:06 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. OK, great. So the book is again, How to Feel Love, The Five Mindsets that get you more of what Matters Most, and of course I will be leaving a link to it in the description of the interview. And Doctor, Doctor Ray, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. It's been a fascinating conversation.

1:12:27 Harry Reis: Oh, it's been a pleasure to talk to you, Ricardo. Thank you for having me.

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