#1275 Orna Donath: Women Who Regret Having Children

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Ricardo Lops, and today I'm joined by Dr. Orna Donov. She's a sociologist, lecturer, writer, and feminist activist. She teaches at Tel Aviv University, Ben-Gurion University. And the academic College of Tel Aviv Yafu. Her field of study focuses on the social expectations projected on women, both those who are mothers and those who are not, especially by choice. And today we're going to focus mostly on her book Regretting Motherhood A Study. So Dr. Rodonov, welcome to the show. It's a big pleasure to everyone.

00:40 Orna Donath: Thank you very much for inviting me.

00:43 Ricardo Lopes: So let me ask you this to start off with. So what motivated you to study this phenomenon of women who regret motherhood, and why do you think it is important for us to understand it?

01:00 Orna Donath: I conducted my first study about women here in Israel who don't want to be mothers, and there was one sentence that kept troubling me, and that's a certain promise to women that they will surely regret if they will not become mothers. And as a sociologist, I started to wonder whether we are facing here a political usage of emotions. That society uses regret in order to align women into motherhood and how come we never heard about the possibility that women might regret becoming mothers, so I decided to write my PhD about it. Uh, I thought that we can learn a lot about not only about regretting motherhood, but also about society, about things that we are taking for granted. And uh that causes a lot of pain and suffering in lives of women and also sometimes children due to it.

02:08 Ricardo Lopes: Right, and I mean you talked about this typical idea that people try to inculcate in women, particularly also sometimes in men, but mostly in women, that they will regret not having children. I mean, where do you think that this idea comes from and why do you think that it's so relevant in, I guess, every human society?

02:36 Orna Donath: Yeah, um. Look, society would like us to have children. Uh, CHILDREN is, uh, is considered to be strength, you know, high, higher birth rates are strength, uh, political, economical, uh, in military, uh, territory, uh, high birth rates are needed in any country, and society would like the right people to have, uh, and I'm quoting. Unquote, of course that will have more children, so they are trying to control the ability of women to have children because it is needed and also I don't, I'm not familiar with a society that doesn't consider like a real, another quote unquote, a real femininity as going hand in hand with motherhood. Uh, YOU know, this is in patriarchal societies and heteronormative societies, and they, um, Uh, these children are needed and also it is needed in order to keep women in place, uh, in their places, so in our places, so we are being like monitored not to move to a different place other than being wives and mothers still. Also today in 2026, even though it might be more subtle, it's not uh with the real power, but it's like a quiet power, and it's going through our minds and we are being frightened and we are being told that the right way to live life, it's like the, the, the heteronormative life. And every, because we are considered uh female and we are considered like our biological destiny, like our destiny is coded in our biology. And we are being told that there is no other destination or meaning in women's life other than becoming mothers, so regret. Is uh being uh used. In order to frighten us, not to go on an alternative path other than wives and mothers.

05:20 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, and this idea that is certainly tied to more traditional gender roles of women being mothers, having children, and also taking care of them, of course. I mean it, it manifests in many different ways. I mean, it's not only the ways we tend to associate it with, like for example in religious settings where people people might talk about even a mission, the mission of women, but also, I mean, even in secular societies, people talk about the role of women and also men, of course, but here we're focusing mostly on women. The role of women, so I mean it can have different kinds of manifestations, but all of them are tied to gender roles that we or the gender role that women are assigned, right?

06:17 Orna Donath: Yeah, exactly, and we are all the time in different ways being told that it will be the wrong way to live. Uh, THAT we will be miserable or that we are selfish or that we are childish or that we are insane or that we are egoistic and if we are not um Like Saluting to the, to this gender role of being mothers, exactly,

06:54 Ricardo Lopes: and I mean in terms of motherhood, what tends to characterize it in terms of the positive and the negative aspects that go associated with it and of course here we're focusing. Mostly on the negative aspects because we're talking about women who regret being mothers and that's something that society in general, it's a topic that it tries to avoid and doesn't, and most people don't really want. To discuss it or tell women that it's that there's the possibility that they will regret being mothers, but I mean, give us both the positive and the negative aspects that are most common. C E A A S, yes. Yeah,

07:46 Orna Donath: OK. Look, Uh, these sides of, of positive, positive sides and negative sides, it's subjective, you know, there are, uh, and, and I'm not trying to say that, uh, for sure there are negative sides of motherhood. This is not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that not all women. See, uh, only the positive and would like to be mothers. It's not that it is bad. It is not, it's not that it is wrong. It is, I'm just trying to say that there are women who feel it doesn't suit them. It doesn't suit them, you know, taking care of children, it's not, it's not, I'm not talking about it in a good or a bad way. I'm just saying that there are women. Who don't want to dedicate their lives. To this kind of uh relationship, and I'm treating motherhood as a relationship, not as a job. It is a relationship, one of many relationships we have in human lives, and there are women who are saying this kind of a relationship, we don't want it. Uh, WE don't want to, to nurture children. We don't know. We don't want their responsibility to, to put limits. We want to do something else with our lives. So I'm not trying to say that there, I hope I'm understanding you, you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not dealing whether it's. Good or bad because it's subjective, there are women who see this, what I said, the responsibility, taking care, the nurturing, like the, the first and the important mission in our, in their lives, and I truly understand that, and, and they love it. Even, even though sometimes it's hard, so for them it's worthwhile, I'm just saying that there are women who look at it, who experience it, and their bottom line is different. They are saying for us. It's not worthwhile, and that's the story because how can we, uh, you know, mother, motherhood has so many angles and so many moments and it can change along the day and it can change along the years, so it's not something that is fixed. It's not, I, I can't say that motherhood is one thing. Motherhood is, it's like the number of, of, um, terminologies and experiences in motherhood are the same as the, uh, number of women who are mothers, uh, in the world, you know, it's not one thing. So I'm just saying that there are women who, who, um, sometimes in advance without becoming mothers and sometimes after the fact, after becoming mothers, are saying this kind of relationship I don't want to experience in my life. It doesn't suit me.

11:01 Ricardo Lopes: Right, right, no, that's an important clarification. And why is it that this topic of women who regret being mothers is such a social taboo, because I mean, even if we live in societies which are predominantly pro-Nalist, I mean, couldn't it just be the case that people would accept Could people would both push for pro-natalism but also at the same time accept that in public, in society in general, women who regretted being mothers express their regret. I mean, why is it that it's such a taboo topic?

11:49 Orna Donath: I think, uh, for at least two reasons. One, as we spoke before, motherhood is considered to be like the main essence in life, uh, for women, and, um, challenging this, uh, perception is like challenging the social order more generally speaking, and I think it's, uh, frightening for many societies. Whether they are, as you said before, whether they are religious or secular, it's like the, the, the ground everybody would like it to keep it that way, like safe ground, that this is the gender role and we want to keep women in this role and regretting motherhood when women are coming and saying, no, sorry for us, for us it's not what you told us, uh, we don't like it. AND we think we have made a mistake. It's kind of like rocking the boat and it's really frightening. So talking about it, it's people would rather not to hear it or like to deny that it exists. I heard, I read people who are saying no, that's bullshit, sorry, that's, it doesn't exist. It's just a hard time. They are experiencing and when time will pass, they will be all right. There is no such a thing as regretting motherhood, so I think this is one thing, the sacredness of motherhood. But another thing is that I think that more generally speaking, many societies are afraid of this emotional stance of regret in general. Um, IT seems like, um, like redundant emotion, uh, if it's not about a sin or a crime, then people should not regret, we should not look back, we should like go ahead and, and, uh, and, and do what you need to do in order to keep on going. Don't look back. Uh, DON'T have second thoughts, just move on. And these women are reminding us that of course regret exists and we can regret everything, and we do regret everything in life, and this is human life. This is a part of being a subject that we can look back and say, well, I chose, I wish I could have chosen a different path, and so society doesn't tend, uh, don't tend to. APPRECIATE regret. It seems to be like a kind of a loser position to be in. They don't want us to cry, you know. There's a saying, Don't cry over spoiled milk. Why, why shouldn't we cry? Why can't we cry? So you see, we are being told, don't, don't look back and, and don't do that. Just go ahead. And I think that if I will go back to motherhood, then uh there is this perception, that this common perception that because we are female that it's only a matter of time, even though it's hard now, you will be OK and you will, you will like motherhood, you know, next year, the year after it. And the year after it, OK, in 10 years, you, the day will come and you will appreciate motherhood, and here come, uh, women who are, some of them in my study, some of them are grandmothers already, and they are like proving that it's not, not always a matter of time. They are 70 years old. They are mothers already for 30 or 40 years. They didn't change their mind. They still think it was a mistake. And they are not supplying the social catharsis, you know, that, uh, yeah, everything after, after a while, everything will be alright, and they are not, um, delivering this, er, like happy end. That finally at the end everything is all right. They love being mothers, they love it, they enjoy it, and no, they are coming, they are coming and saying, no, no, I guess until grave I will regret motherhood, and this is like kind of horrific for a society that would like to think that it's only a matter of time because you are a female.

16:27 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, no, no, I imagine being such an irreversible decision. It must be really painful, and we're going to talk more about it, but I mean, you're a sociologist. How do you approach the topic of Regret and what does regret mean in this particular context and what is the difference between, because this is also something that you explore in your book, what is the difference between regret and ambivalence?

16:58 Orna Donath: Yeah, so I treat regret as The emotional stance, it's like something that is something of the cognition and emotion together, it's an emotional stance that er weeps about uh the something that we cannot undo and that we had. Some kind of responsibility of making it happen, because you see I can't say that I regret the weather today because I had nothing to do with the weather today. I can't say that I regret the weather. I can say that I regret not taking an umbrella after seeing that there will be a rain, so it's Kind of my responsibility or my hand was involved in it, and I wish I could have gone back and do otherwise. It's not just looking back and saying, oh well, interesting what could have been if, it's also saying, oh my, I wish I could have done something differently. And in my study, I asked all the women who participated in it, uh, if you would go back in time. And with the experience and the knowledge you have today, would you have become mothers? And all of the women who participated in my study said no. In different ways, they expressed their negative emotions about it and they said no, I, I wouldn't have done it again, and another thing that I asked is whether they have some kind, they experience some kind of advantages in motherhood, and some of them said. I do experience several advantages, but the disadvantages are overweighting the advantages, and others said, no, I don't see any advantages in motherhood for me. And this brings us to uh to dis uh distinguish regret from ambivalence because ambivalence, it's, it's the both sides. Of both sides, like I love it and I hate it and I want to go away for a bit from my children, but I miss them so much. It is hard for me, but you know, the but is a really like a really important center here because many women can say I, I, it's really hard, but Uh, motherhood means the world to me, and I wouldn't have changed it for a bit. I, I would have done it once again, and the women I have interviewed are not saying they don't have the butt, uh, because they're saying it's hard. And I wish I wouldn't have done it. So the but is like, um, it's like not or, it's end, and it's hard, it's hard, but uh. Uh, YOU know, in regret it's hard in that period. They don't want anything else but just wish to, to undo it. So I hope I, I succeeded in, in, in explaining, but the ambivalence, it's, it's like, it's so, it's, it's, it's, um, it's a kind of a mixture of, of opposite feelings, but they are all lived together.

20:40 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. Right, no, no, yeah, it was a good explanation. So let me ask you to learn more about or for the audience to learn more about the women who you interviewed and studied and who expressed regret in terms of their motherhood. What routes did they take to motherhood? I mean, was it that some of them didn't really want to have children, that they always said they didn't want to have children, but in one way or another they were coerced into having them? Was That they changed their, they were sort of convinced by society that they should be mothers and they fought they wanted to be mothers, and it was only after the fact that that they learned that it was actually not something that they really wanted to be. I mean, what routes did those women take?

21:43 Orna Donath: Yeah, I, I, I, there are 3 main routes. One of them, it's like 1/3 of the women who participated in my study told me that they didn't want to become mothers, but they were persuaded into it, uh, most of the time by their partners who sometimes really like, you know, said that uh like threatened with divorce and even though they knew they didn't want to be mothers, they said, OK, I don't want to have to, I don't want a divorce, and um I will do it, and they did it and after the fact they, they learned that they felt that they were right not to want from the outset, so that's One route, uh, the second route. You know, women sometimes laughed in front of me when I asked them what was your root, do you remember that if you wanted to become a mother, and they laughed in front of me because they said, I, I don't know if I want it or not. I don't know. I didn't, I didn't stop to think about it because like, especially here in Israel, it's like the natural, um, uh, journey you need to go through. You get married, you have children, you don't really stop to think. Do I want it? Can I have children? Uh, AM I able to raise children? They said to, they, they really laughed. They said, I, until this day, I don't really know why I did it. It was just like the natural course of life. And the third route was of women who really wanted to become mothers. And they thought that it will bring joy and calmness and like a kind of serenity into their lives, and only in retrospect they understood that it caused mainly they caused, it caused chaos in their lives. So they really wanted to become others, and they waited for it, and then they learned that they suffer within it.

24:11 Ricardo Lopes: Right. So, uh, I mean, and how do they react and transform, uh, cognitively and emotionally after the birth of their children? I mean, what happens to them, uh, psychologically?

24:28 Orna Donath: Look, I'm a sociologist, so I didn't really study the psychology of it. I just can, I, I, I will say one thing that there are women in my study who started to feel regret already during the pregnancy, and, uh, some of them after the first birth, some of them and only under after the second, uh, in my study participated also women who have 4 children. You know, 123, and 4 children, because in Israel we need, I need to, I think I need to explain that in Israel having 1 child, it's not the norm and it's considered to be something like it's deviant to, to have quote unquote only one child. So women who had one child and if also if they did understand that they regret. Couldn't afford themselves not to have more children because here in Israel they will be like kind of slandered if they have only one child. Uh, THE perception here is that one child, it's like a bad joke, uh, you know, you start it, continue doing it. A child must have brothers or sisters, otherwise it will be something will be damaged, uh, socially, uh, with the, like, uh, something will be wrong with them if they, they will be too spoiled, too egoistic, they will not know how to have friends, uh, they will not know how to be in a partnership. You must have more children. So some of them continue to have more children even though they understood after the already after the first one. And um so I can't answer from a psychological perspective I can't I can't say that um Many of them feel guilty about it. And they do go to get help. Like, uh, psychological help or something, or, or someone who will guide them, but, um, they are learning how to live with it. Yeah, people should understand, regret, regret, it's not necessarily something that you can wipe away and, and solve, solve it. Maybe the way is to accept that you are living a life that uh you, you prefer not to leave them, but you have children and you can't really like uh make it prettier. This is the situation, you have children, you would have liked to live a different life, and this is the situation. Sometimes, uh, and I heard it from one mother who regrets, she said that uh she went to therapy, and there she got the message that, yeah, it will, it will be alright, er, you know, time will solve it, and when she understood that that's not what's going, what is going to happen. This is what cracked her, you know, she, she broke. Due to the promise, the linear promise, like a promise about linearity that time will, uh, make it better, and when she understood that it's not going to become better for her, she just need to accept that this is what happened. Um, IT really cracked her when she got this, uh, false promises. It might, it might get easier for some women, yes.

28:35 Ricardo Lopes: But I mean, the women who actually regret having children, it never becomes easier for them, or does it?

28:48 Orna Donath: Uh, FOR some, maybe it will get easier. For some it will stay just the same, you know, I interviewed women. I told you I interviewed women who are 70 years old, and the children, their children already have children. They are grandmothers, and they still feel regret. Yeah, so their children,

29:09 Ricardo Lopes: even at the stage in their life where supposedly their children no longer depend on them.

29:16 Orna Donath: Yeah, exactly. So I'm talking in my book about I, I turned in, I termed it like a consciousness motherhood. It's something that it's here. It doesn't depend on the daily task. It's not in, it doesn't, it's not rooted in actuality. It's a kind of consciousness. You walk around on earth knowing that you are somebody's mom. You know, and it's like once a mother, always a mother, you will always be a mother, even if your children are grown up, even if they have children, uh, women who are not becoming mothers. Have the consciousness of nobody's mom, I'm nobody's mom. And mothers are somebody's mom. Yeah, and even, you know, even if the children, God forbid, but even if they are dead or you are always a mother in here, you are a mother,

30:20 Ricardo Lopes: yeah, yeah, yeah, so I mean there can be this conflict or perhaps every one of them experiences to a certain extent this conflict between Them wishing to be nobody's mom and the fact that they are actually and irreversibly mothers of children.

30:43 Orna Donath: Exactly, exactly, and that's a fact, they are mothers of children and in their inner worlds they would like to be nobody's mom. There's trash there. Yeah. Mhm. Uh,

31:01 Ricardo Lopes: SO there's also earlier we were talking about some of the most common ideas that people have about motherhood and for example, the idea that, uh, yeah, even if they don't like it being mothers at early. Stages then probably later they will stop regretting it or things will get better and there's also the idea when women express wishing to be, as we said, nobody's mom or wishing to be child free. It is also very common that people tell them, oh yeah. I mean, you will change your mind later and you will want to become a mother, things like that, but another very common idea is that motherhood makes women complete. So, but what are the real reactions that mothers have to their own motherhood?

32:00 Orna Donath: Ah. Men, many of the women I interviewed said that. Even though we are being told, as you said, that motherhood will make you complete, they felt that it, it drains them. It takes something from them, like they experience loss. Not that it makes them something like uh more rounder or uh wider or bigger, that they are becoming small, that they are becoming, they, they are losing things, they are losing themselves, uh, they are uh so many kind of, and they're not the only, the first one, wants to say, you know, there is a lot of theoretical feminists. Article writing about what motherhood might make for women might do for women, and it's already been written about the losses also in motherhood. You need to sometimes to say goodbye and farewell to a person you have been before and many of them miss this person. And and they don't feel that motherhood gave them something that it is um appreciated by them. Uh, I must say that each and every one of the women who participated in my study said, the children I love, my children I love. I love my children. I love them, they are great persons, they, it's good that they are in the world. But I don't, uh, I, but I hate. Being in the position in this position. In my relationship with them, meaning I, I love my children, I hate being their mother. So they, they do feel that it's, it's good and, and appreciated that they, they, that, that these children are in the world. But they would have wanted someone else to be their mothers and not themselves.

34:21 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. No, yeah, because there's also this very common idea that people who I mean, people who love children would also necessarily want to have their own children, but that's not always the case, and there's a, it's not, it's also not always the case that people who don't want to have their own children, it's because they hate children. That's also not necessarily the case,

34:55 Orna Donath: right? Exactly. We are doing so many wrong connections between the things. And it's like a kind of shallow shallow connections between the things because we can have so many different relationships with children without being the par their parents and um let's say like that, let's like draw like a kind of a spectrum, let's say upfront there are people who don't like children. And and it's not that they, let's put it more accurately, they don't enjoy being around children. They don't like the, like to the kind of um. Language to use, the, the games, it's boring for them, they don't, they don't think they have the access to the hearts of children, they don't know how to talk to them, so they prefer as much as they can not to be around children. It's not that they hate, but they don't, they don't, OK, maybe sometimes people do hate children, but I'm talking about they don't, they don't, they're not interested in being around children, so this is one side of the spectrum. On the other side of, and, and, and I'm talking here about parents and non-parents alike. There are also parents and there are parents who are saying, I don't like children, I don't like being around children, uh, unless it's my children. OK, so there is this, so parents and non-parents alike could be on this side of the spectrum. On the other side, there are people who are saying, I love being with children. I enjoy it. I feel vivid. I like being creative around children. I like their curiosity. I like to play games with them. I like it. And there are some people who want to work with children as teachers and consult consultors in kindergarten, you know, and on this side, parents and non-parents alike can be. And, and say that also women who don't want to uh to become mothers. I, I know a lot of women who don't want to become mothers, but they do work with children because they love being around children and in the middle. So many of us, uh, who travel along the spectrum, you know, it depends on which day, it depends on which children we are talking about, it depends on so many things, and we are like moving on this spectrum, non non-parents and parents alike, yeah.

37:40 Ricardo Lopes: But I mean, let me ask you one more question about regret, and then I will have just one final topic I would like to ask you about. I, I want to address this question because we hear it very frequently from people who have a more traditional view of gender roles, people who are conservative and sometimes even anti-feminists, who, I, I mean, does this regret, uh, this regret of being a mother stem in any way from women? Being forced to choose between having children and pursuing a career, I mean, does it have anything to do with that, or, I mean, or, or does it have nothing to do with that, and they would have that regret even if they have a career it has just to do with the fact that they are mothers.

38:36 Orna Donath: That's a very good question because there is a like a misconception that women who don't want to become mothers are necessarily career women, and that's a, that's a, it's, it's a misconception, of course, of course there are women who are not mothers who are career women, but most of the women. Uh, ARE not that who are not, uh, who don't want to be mothers are not career women. They are working, you know, because, uh, they need to support themselves, uh, in a world that we need money, so they love their work or need to work, but they are not career women. Why is this, is the, you know, why is this is the, the, um, the, I don't know how to say it, um. Uh, AXIOM, there is an axiom of like motherhood and career. Why is it like that that we are, yeah, yeah,

39:31 Ricardo Lopes: it's, it's sort of a dilemma, right? You have to choose one or the other or something like that,

39:37 Orna Donath: yeah, yeah. But, but, but why we are being told that either you are a mother or you are a woman, a woman, because. We have so limited imagination about diverse identities of women. We are being told because in a heteronormative society it's really binary. Either you are a woman or you are a man. So we are being told if you are becoming a mother, so you are a real woman. If you're not becoming a mother, so you are not a real woman. If you are not a real woman, so what are you? You are like a man. You are like a man, so probably what's important in your life, it's career. But there are more identities of women. Uh, IT'S not, uh, uh, you are a real woman or a man. There are so many other identities of the women who want to be this and this, none of this and none of this, so many, you know, combination, and the other reason for that is that um women who are not mothers are being um asked to prove that they are doing something. WITH their lives. If you are not a mother, then at least be a career woman, at least do something with your life. If you're not a mother, at least, at least be like a really uh important musician or important writer or do something because otherwise, what is the meaning of your life? If you are not a mother, you are nothing. So please prove to us that there is any kind, any sort of meaning to your life, so at least be a career woman, do something with your life. I would like to live in a world when, where a woman can say, well, I'm, I'm not a mother. And if she's being asked, so what are you do, what do you do with your life, so I will say I just like, you know, draw a dot on, on, on my wall and I just throw a paper airplanes, and, and, and this is what I do with my life. I don't need to prove, I don't need to improve. Yeah, I'm just doing, I, I, I'm, I, I, this is the meaning of my life, or I don't have, I don't know what's the meaning of my life, but I will not, you know, uh, need to deliver recipe like, like proof. Yeah, that my life has a meaning if I'm not a mother.

42:18 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, which is very interesting because I mean perhaps even more so when we are talking about religious people because we hear very commonly from them that people have inherent value, that is people are valuable just by existing regardless of what they do or who they are, but at the same time when people are Confronted with people who make the decision to not be mothers, sometimes also fathers, but and people who express regret for being mothers and things like that, actually it seems like they're only valuable to other people if they sort of fulfill their Expected role, the role that society expects from them in some way or another, as you were saying, if they are not mothers, at the very least they have to have some sort of economic value or something like that,

43:25 Orna Donath: right? Yeah, and it's really, you know, it's like a kind of a circle, really interesting circle because People demand that we have uh some sort of value, but in the first place, I know it's kind of philosophical saying, but we were not being uh nobody asked. Us, if we would like to be in this world, you know, we, uh, someone brought us into this world and now we are being sent to prove that there is a meaning in our life. I, I, nobody was asking us, uh, if we want to be born, if we, we, if we, we, what's the meaning of, of our consent to be born. We were not asked, and now we are being thrown into life. And prove that you have a meaning, and the, the first question is, why do I need to prove anything? Nobody asked me. I know it's philosophical and I know, I know that we are not, we cannot be asked about it, but why are, we are being blamed. For not participating in this race. And why can't we say, well, I don't know, I was thrown into life. I'm not going to end it. I'm not going to do something to myself. I'm, I'm just trying to be. I'm just trying to be. I'm here. It's a matter of fact, I'm here. I don't need to prove anything.

45:03 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, so let me ask you about one final topic then. How do you think that motherhood should be approached in society then? Because of course, I mean, I, I think it's, it's not realistic to expect that people will ever not be. Pro-natalist, I mean that, that's just the way that the societies work because, uh, I mean, societies want to survive, want to propagate, and so on, but, uh, in, in terms of regretting motherhood, do you think that we should tell women. That that's a possibility, or at least tell them about the possible negative experiences associated with motherhood, or if not that, perhaps we. JUST be open and uh I mean accommodating for women when they express their regret in your understanding, what is the best way of approaching that?

46:15 Orna Donath: I will start with motherhood. I think that it's great, and who am I to say that, but I will say that it's great when women want to become mothers and becoming mothers, and this is the only way I think women should become mothers when they truly. Want to become mothers. I'm against, you know, giving license to people, whether to have children or not. Sometimes people are talking about parent who should be licensed. Uh, I, I'm not pro this approach because wherever there is a license, there are people who will decide who will be a parent and who will. BE a parent and I'm afraid of this kind of committees. It's like a slippery slippery slope for racism and homophobic and you know, thoughts against people who are poor and so I would like to live in a society in which people have the liberty to uh to Really go inside and ask themselves whether they want to become parents and uh whether they are able to raise children. And I think that if we will live in a society with such a liberty, maybe less children will be born, but less suffer as well will be in the world, and the children who will, who will be born will have like a more, maybe I hope, I think more pleasant life because They were wanted er because their parents were, were able to raise them, and I'm not talking about only economically, I think that also poor people can raise like children who are who are uh feeling er wanted, er loved, being cared of. It's not, I'm not talking here economically. And you know, people can be very rich and, and treat their children really poorly. So it's not about the money, it's about something inside that you, you want, you want it, and you are able to, to do it also to one child, two children, 37. And, and 8, OK. So this is the first thing that I think it's really, it's kind of naive maybe to say it, but that, that's the, that's for me, that's the only way to become parents, when people want it, really, truly want it and are able to do it, and And I think that uh it should be open and not being panic about it, that. Just the same regret exists about everything in life, you know, people, as I said before, people regret about everything. Why did I get married? Why didn't I get married? Why did I have this tattoo and not this tattoo? Why I did this tattoo here and not there, uh, why did I start smoking? Why didn't I do, uh, sports enough in my life, and why did I start studying this and not that. We, we regret. Everything, so it's really human to treat regretting motherhood as something that it's, it's logic, and I'm not glorifying it and I'm not promoting it. That's not the, the thing that I'm saying. I'm just saying it exists because, you know, when women don't want to be mothers, so many times they are being told you have to be a mother. You don't know how it will change your life. Well, exactly. It might change your life and not for the best. So of course there will be, there will also be women who look back and say, well, it didn't change my life for the better. So we need to just like breathe and understand that it exists and that the sky are not falling. I'm not saying that it's, it's nice or, or pleasant to feel regretting feel regret about motherhood, but as a society we just need to accept that it exists. And we just uh need to, to, to um make sure. That women and men have the liberty. To, to decide which path to go in their life and, and, um, yeah, I, I don't think we, we need to, uh, talk all the time about regretting motherhood. It's nice also to talk about the nice thing about motherhood and parenthood. It's nice. There are many nice things in motherhood and fatherhood and parenthood, but we should not silence. The uh experiences of of people who are saying, well, we, we need to take into account that not for each and everyone who are becoming parents, it will be the best thing that ever happened to them, and some might regret it, yes.

51:27 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm. OK, great. So the book is again regretting Motherhood Study, and I will be leaving a link to it in the description of the interview. And Dr. Donna, uh, are there any places on the internet where people can find your work more broadly?

51:46 Orna Donath: Uh, NO, I'm not on the, you know, it's sporadically. I don't have a site and I'm not on social media. Uh, THERE is a site called Academia.com. But and, and some of my, uh, articles are there, yeah, but there is no one place.

52:05 Ricardo Lopes: OK, OK, that's fine.

52:07 Orna Donath: It's not unfortunately. I'm not there. I'm not on social media. Yeah,

52:12 Ricardo Lopes: OK, so thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. It's been a fascinating conversation.

52:19 Orna Donath: Thank you so much. It was really, really my honor and my pleasure. Thank you, Ricardo.

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