#1267 Mary Knight: Infidelity, Relationships with Escorts, and Intimacy

00:00 Ricardo Lopes: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Dissenter. I'm your host, as always, Ricardo Lops, and today I'm joined by Mary Knight. She's the YouTuber behind the channel Sex, Love and Soul, and of course I will be leaving a link to it. In the description, she's a retired high-end escort and former madame. She spent years on the inside of the sex industry and now she coaches men who are trying to build real relationships with women who work in it or came from it. And today we're going to talk about several different. Topics like why men cheat, what they look for in escorts, relationships with escorts, romantic relationships, more generally, a male or male loneliness. We'll see if we'll get into that topic or not and other related topics. So Mary, welcome to the show. It's a big pleasure to everyone.

00:53 Mary Knight: Oh, thank you, Ricardo. I'm really happy to be here and I'm excited to get into all these topics.

01:00 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, sure. So, I mean, the question of cheating is very interesting because you have sort of Uh, a a very particular view of it when you worked as an escort. I mean, you have all that experience, so what can you tell us about it, or at least what are, what did you get from men? What did they tell? When, what did you sort of figure out when interacting with them when they paid for to have a session with you when they have a partner, uh, I mean a girlfriend or a spouse or someone like that.

01:43 Mary Knight: When I first started, I think just like everybody else, I thought that men cheated or saw escorts because they wanted variety, because they were bored at home and they were like, oh, I'm gonna go out and have. Sex with an attractive, willing woman who isn't my wife. And what I found out was that in a very small minority of cases, that was what was happening. Most of the men, and by most. 95% of the men that I saw, and then when I was running the escort service, and then I also ran a brothel, including those men too, it was because of an emotional connection they thought was missing in their relationship, and they didn't know how to express it. And they thought, oh, it's sex. It's because I'm not getting sex. That's why I feel this way. And so they, a lot of times men see escorts because they don't want a girlfriend. They don't want an emotional connection, you know, they want this no strings attached situation where they're going to go, they're going to have their sexual needs met, and then they can keep it in this little box, feel satisfied physically, go home to their wives, and Just have their relationship feel more peaceful to them because they're not, and I say in quotes, bothering their wives for sex, because that's the way men felt. They felt like their sex drive, their need for sex was a burden on their wives, which, which is very interesting. It was interesting to me because I thought, wow, that. That's really sad. And, um, and most of the men, they weren't just like these dirty dog cheaters that hated their wives and were like, uh, they loved their wives. And I know it blows women's minds when I say that. It's like they loved their wives, that's why they saw escorts. That's why they didn't get a divorce. And to a lot of women and, and, and, and people who aren't involved in that industry, in that culture, that way of life, that makes no sense. Like, why would you do that to somebody that you love, right? And it's, it is kind of twisted, right? It's twisted.

04:03 Ricardo Lopes: But, but is, is this something that uh men, uh, talk about with escorts? Is this something that you just intuit from their behavior? OR from other sort of unrelated things that they share with you. I mean, how much are men who seek escorts, how much are they willing to open up with them usually?

04:29 Mary Knight: Oh, that's the biggest part of the appointment. IS them talking. Any escort that you talk to, I bet you, anybody, anybody at, at, at a certain, at a certain level, it's all about companionship. Out of an, you know, I got to like it and later in my career, I wouldn't do hour-long appointments. You know, I had a minimum of 5 hours and then I got to be where it was a minimum of, you know, a weekend kind of thing. And, yeah, I mean, because that's, that's great work if you can get it, right? You know, but it's, but it's, you know, it's, so say for the sake of just to make it easy, in an hour, 15 minutes of that appointment would be. Sexual activity. The rest of it for most men is you're, they're talking, they're relating to you, they're, you know, sharing parts of their lives and they just wanna be in. The, the aura, the feminine aura, they wanna be around someone who is actually listening, looking them in the eye, not judging them, and I'm not putting down, I'm a wife, I'm not putting down wives, but you know, when you're in a relationship with somebody, after a while, you just get sick of their shit. You don't wanna hear the same old crap over and over again, especially when it's not being resolved, you know, and, and so anyway, yeah, so to answer your question, yes, most of the appointments are spent. Making an intimate connection, that's, that's how I knew was because they told me. Because, again, I thought that it was just like, they wanted variety, but also it was like they, I had, I saw the same clients over and over again. Like there were literally thousands of other women they could have seen. Mhm. And so yeah, they kept, they, they, they find the same women to see over and over again.

06:25 Ricardo Lopes: So they form over time a sort of connection to you or

06:31 Mary Knight: not, yes, for sure, for sure.

06:35 Ricardo Lopes: And what, what kind of connection would you say exactly?

06:39 Mary Knight: Well, if a man is married and so, so it's like say for, for some older men that were married and they had been married, you know, 30, 40 years, they weren't divorcing their wives. There was no way in hell they were getting a divorce. That was not what they wanted. They just wanted. Companionship and sex. And those men, those men were actually the most fun to, to see as clients is because you knew they understood this is going nowhere. Right? We're gonna have fun when we're together. We can be a little bit in love when we're together, but when we're not together, we're not together. And then some men who I'd say didn't get it. They were actually, because they were so used to feeling deprived at home, real or imagined, they felt deprived and denied at home. And so when they have a woman who opens her body to them, They think they fall in love. And so then they actually are looking for a girlfriend.

07:42 Ricardo Lopes: But do you, do you think that it's just that they think they fell in love or sometimes they can actually fall in love?

07:55 Mary Knight: I think it depends. Well, I mean it, I mean, what do you call love, right? Like, especially if they're just in a relationship where they're not having their needs met, and obviously they don't think they can talk to this woman. About their, their needs, their wants, their desires. If they They're outsourcing it to someone else. So there's something definitely missing. I, and I know this goes against some popular psychology beliefs, like, I love Esther Perel. I have a lot of respect for her, but I think I've, I, her book Mating in Captivity, when she said, oh, all kinds of people cheat and and happy people cheat, I was like, no, happy people don't cheat. People with self-respect don't cheat. And, and so there's, there's like this huge gap there. These, these men don't feel good about themselves because if they did, they would say, hey, this is what I need from their wives, and they don't. They don't know how.

08:56 Ricardo Lopes: OK, but, but even if they're not happy, the, it's not necessarily the case that they're no longer in love with their partners, or is it?

09:08 Mary Knight: Right, right. I know, I kind of got off track with that, yeah, because that's a hard question, like, think, I mean, because how many times I'm thinking about how many times did I think I was in love with someone, not, not working, but just in my personal life. I'm someone you could say, I fall in love easily. And I think really it's, it's like, it's lust. But, you know, when you have someone open themselves to you, it feels so good, because what, what is love, right? It's like, you know, feeling accepted, feeling like you can be yourself, being at ease. You know, and, and wanting to be open and share with that person, and that's what a lot of men experience when they're with a sex worker.

09:48 Ricardo Lopes: But do you think that at a certain point at least some men may start to look at escorts they see as close to friends or not?

09:59 Mary Knight: Yes. It happens. It happens, and once you become friends, you can't really, you don't, you don't really have sex anymore, you know, like, I had some clients like that where we had just kind of, we just became good friends, and so then we stopped seeing each other as escort and client, and they would call me and say, hey, Mary, you wanna have lunch? You wanna meet me for happy hour? I'm like, yeah, sure. You know, that that's, it, it happened. I don't know, like, I had a handful of, of guys like that when I was living in Austin that I would, you know, cause we've seen each other for so long, and then it was like, yeah, it just kind of. Cause I think because I became a therapist, and so the sexual charge, the sexual polarity goes away. Yeah,

10:40 Ricardo Lopes: and and I mean, do many escorts accept being or becoming friends with their clients?

10:48 Mary Knight: Some do, some do, it just depends, it depends on what kind of Relationships they have. I mean, I like the I'm just thinking about like the friends that I knew, like once you become high, like if you're working for an escort agency, you're working for somebody else, that is really frowned upon and I don't think those women are doing that as frequently as, say, someone like me where I was an independent escort and I was uh You know, making so much money from other men that I could afford to have some friends. It was a business decision, right? Because I could have still charged them.

11:25 Ricardo Lopes: Right. Yeah, yeah, that's the reason why I was asking. I mean, to the extent to which there are many escorts out there that are really willing to take that step where it stops being a strictly professional relationship. Of course I'm not saying that it turns necessarily into more than a friendship, into a romantic relationship or something like that, but Uh, they're willing to at least step outside of the strictly professional and become more buddies or, uh, uh, friends with their clients. It,

12:02 Mary Knight: it can happen. It doesn't happen a lot, because, I mean, if you think about it, like, how many people do you actually meet in your life that you really click with and want to be friends with, you know, but sometimes it's, it's, it's fun to do that with a client that you know, like, OK, we're buds, because you have someone in your life that you can talk to that knows what you do. And doesn't judge you for it and then y'all can talk to each other about your days or like he's seeing other women and you can talk about, you're like, oh no, don't, you know, you can help them pick, oh, don't see her now, she's got a bad, you know, or whatever, you can help them kind of guide them, you know, it's if they want to keep seeing other women.

12:41 Ricardo Lopes: Have you ever given advice to any men that you became friends with about other escorts?

12:51 Mary Knight: I have, like, if I knew them, if I was friends with them, but to be really, really honest, um, I often discourage them from seeing escorts. Mm. Because it, it's an escape. You know, it's a way of not dealing with your life, with your problems. And because again, happy people don't see escorts. Even though it can be fun and everything I'm talking about, like, I'm obviously like a, like a light person, you know, I'm a happy person. I've been retired for 1414 or 15 years. I, I, you know, 1415 years, and I've been with my husband for 12 years now, but it's a dark path. It's, it's dark. It's a secret, it's illegal, um, you can't. Tell people, you have to be careful because it's, you know, you don't want to tell people, tell the wrong person and then get arrested or hurt, you know, so it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, you're a professional criminal, so it is, there's a darkness to it.

14:01 Ricardo Lopes: But

14:02 Mary Knight: do you,

14:02 Ricardo Lopes: do you find it's dark because of how society tends to deal with or treat sex workers, or, or is it really intrinsic to the occupation itself? I mean, I know that it's many times probably it's hard to separate one from the other, but what do you think?

14:24 Mary Knight: I think it's, well, it's a combination. Because that darkness. Can be because you have to shut a part of yourself off to share yourself with so many people. Because it's, you're having sex with men that you're not attracted to. You're having sex because it's your job, right? You're being paid. It's a transaction, and that never goes away. You know, there's so, so if you're, it's not, it's not based on mutual attraction, so when you're an escort, you're always on. You're always on, you're always guarding a part of yourself. And that's exhausting after a while. It's so good, so you go home and you're like, oh, I can just be me now. I don't have to be on like that. That's what makes it dark. It's, it's a lie, and I think anything that is a lie. And is done in secret is inherently stressful, very stressful, and that causes a darkness. In you as a person. It did me, and that was the thing that got me the most was the lying and the hiding. Not the having sex with strangers for money, it was the lying and the hiding and, and keeping things from people, being so guarded all the time. But I was like that before I got into sex work. It, it didn't make me that way. It just, it just helped me stay that way.

16:01 Ricardo Lopes: Right, and do you, do you think, or, or at least in your experience, are most men who pay for sex, uh, nice to the escorts, or, I mean, what percentage would you say are, uh, or try to treat escorts, uh, badly?

16:22 Mary Knight: Uh, IN my personal experience, and then anecdotally from women that I knew and then women that worked for me. Um, I would say, gosh, I was, I mean, Seriously, without exaggeration, I would say 98% of the men are just looking to have fun. They are not trying to cause trouble. They're not. Assholes or serial killers or ax murderers or sadists. I'm sure those people exist. But the percentage of that is so small in our society too, and it sex work does not bring, uh, doesn't bring that out in people, I think it just depends on the level too. I think that, you know, there is a hierarchy that they call the hierarchy, right? But there is a hierarchy, you know, people who are, are street sex workers, I don't think they're any less. Professional or less human or people or anything like that, but that situation is inherently much more dangerous. Right, because you don't have the checks of, you're not going to someone's hotel room where it's in their name, you're not checking references, you're getting in someone's vehicle, you know, it's like, woo, even saying it, it's like I just feel, and I knew some street level women, um. And man, I'm like, how do you do that? And they think it's weird to do inca or to go to a man's house or hotel. They're like, oh, I would feel so stifled. I like the freedom, you know, it's a personality thing too. Yeah, I

18:01 Ricardo Lopes: was going, yeah, I was going to ask you about that actually. Do you think that, because, for example, earlier when you said that uh it's tough because, uh, I mean, escorts are having to put on sort of a mask to have sex with strangers and sex with men, mostly men, of course, who they are not attracted to, but do you think that perhaps There, even if it's just a minority, there is a minority of sex workers, female sex workers specifically, who just find it fun because I don't know, maybe they score high on sociosexuality or something like that.

18:43 Mary Knight: Sure, I mean, I think that it's just like in the immortal words of Jenna Jamieson. That gorgeous porn star, she said, you have to like to get boned. And there you do, you have to enjoy the activity of sex. And I think you have to like men also, if you're having sex with men. Um, THERE are some women who didn't like men and so they were like, OK, I'm gonna make men pay. And then there were some women who really didn't enjoy sex, but didn't know themselves well enough to know, oh yeah, I don't really like sex. It's not that I don't like being a prostitute, it's that I don't actually like sex, and then they can figure that out. But yeah, I think that, I mean, because I'll admit there are some, there were some clients where it's like, I'm getting paid for this. Are you serious? This guy is hot and he's good in bed, and he's fun. So yeah, there are times, but, but, yeah, and I, but I think that that kind of like, oh well, she's, she's an, an escort because she likes sex. It's like, no, if you like sex, you wouldn't be having it with strangers. You could just go and pick up dudes that you think are hot.

20:02 Ricardo Lopes: Right,

20:04 Mary Knight: so,

20:06 Ricardo Lopes: no, I, I, I mean, I was just wondering,

20:08 Mary Knight: right, so, uh.

20:11 Ricardo Lopes: But I mean when it comes to the cheating aspect of it, I mean, in what sense would you say it's it's cheating? I mean, I'm not questioning whether, whether it's cheating or not. I'm just asking in what ways is it cheating because there There are people who distinguish between, for example, sexual and emotional cheating. I mean, do you, do you also do that? And if so, do you think that it's just one of them, it's both? How do you look at it?

20:44 Mary Knight: I think that anytime you're going against the agreement that you have with your partner, it's cheating. Anytime you're hiding something from your partner. It's cheating because there's also, you know, there's financial infidelity, you know, too, so that's also because anytime it's a secret. You know, that that's when it's, it's cheating, and some people don't have any problem with it, the, oh, you know, um, he, uh, he's got this, uh, a work wife, or she's got a work husband. Most most men have a problem with that, right? But, but it's like some people are like, oh, it's OK as long as they're not having sex. And then some people, some women, and I think I'm included in that, I would much rather that, heaven forbid, my husband had sex outside of the terms and conditions of our marriage. I would much rather that than him having an emotional relationship with a woman. It's like, oh my gosh, you know, where I think most men would rather that she had an emotional relationship rather than a physical one. I think it's just, it's, you know, one of men's high values is loyalty. You know, you want to be able to trust your woman, but it's, yeah, I think it's, I think it's all, anytime you're not honest, it's cheating.

22:03 Ricardo Lopes: Mhm, YEAH, right. No, I, I totally agree, but I mean, do you get, or did you get while you were an escort situations where the wife agreed to her husband paying an escort?

22:20 Mary Knight: Oh, I thought you were gonna say, did I ever have a wife call me, and that's why I made a face. Um, WELL, well, we cannot, we can talk about. Oh my God, that is the most miserable thing. But yeah, to answer your question, um, yes, yes, that's what they said. Now, and, and then actually I had seen, um, I saw a man a couple of times and then he told his wife about me and so then they started seeing me together. So that, that happened occasionally. I would see couples too, um, I loved that. That was so fun, and it's maybe a little off topic, but sometimes seeing couples, well, sometimes most of the time. Uh, IT would end up that, you know, the woman and I would be interacting, and that was what they wanted. And so then the couple would get so hot, then they would start having sex, and I was just there watching. And that's what happened a lot was just the whole idea of that someone else was in the room watching them. That's what was the big turn on for them. So, it's very rare that I actually had intercourse with the man when it was a, a couple call. Very rarely, cause they would just get so excited. That they would just want to do it themselves. That,

23:38 Ricardo Lopes: that's funny.

23:40 Mary Knight: It is funny. It was cute. I, I loved it. I loved that I could help this married couple spice things up, and I wasn't a threat. You know, there was just, there was no way I was a threat in that situation. So it was, it was, it, it felt good to me. And I always made sure in that situation, I always made sure that the woman knew beforehand and that I was not a surprise, because one time I was a surprise and the wife was not happy about it.

24:05 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, I, I mean, of course, of course.

24:08 Mary Knight: That's cool.

24:10 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, of course we're focusing mostly on cheating here, but I'm also, I'm also curious. I mean, over your career, did you get many situations where, for example, a family member like I don't know, a father, a mother, a brother, an uncle took their, took a kid, a kid, I mean, over 18, of course, to, to you to lose his virginity or something like that.

24:40 Mary Knight: Well. I've heard of that happening. Um, I was 33 when I first started, so if somebody that young had come to me or wanted an appointment with me, I would have said no. Because that's Mm, that's not something that I would be interested in doing, but Here's something that Bother me a lot is that I coach. Like 5 men right now. Where that their dad did that. And these men are struggling because that is a very hard habit to break. They lost their virginity. At a brothel, and then They just, whenever things don't go their way with women, they go right back to seeing sex workers, and now they feel like they're addicted to it. And then with OnlyFans, right, it's that same kind of thing where they can, you know, get on there and have their needs met like that, get the attention from a woman. Um, INSTEAD of solving their problems, their issues, so, I think Just maybe just from my experience, cause I'm coaching these men. That is not a good idea. You are not doing your son a favor at all by starting him off like that.

26:05 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, it's interesting because I've also heard the opposite kind of take on it because for example, back in December I interviewed, I don't know if you know, if you know about her, probably yes, Alice Little, and I interviewed her. She, she's an escort in the state of Nevada, if I'm not mistaken. That's the only state where it is legalized, right in the US.

26:33 Mary Knight: It's not even the whole state. I think it's one county in Nevada, right, right,

26:39 Ricardo Lopes: but, but she, she told me, or we talked a little bit about those kinds of cases where family members would take their children or their nephews, their brothers, and so on to when they reached 18 or a little bit over 18 and to see an escort and I mean, she told me that that at least sometimes it actually had a positive effect in the sense that they were like, in a sense scared of women, and then that just went away and they started feeling more at ease approaching women and stuff like that, so.

27:22 Mary Knight: Well, I'm seeing those men 20 years later, right, in my coaching practice. So maybe in the moment, it felt great and it was good for them, but what are the long-term effects of that? That's, that's where I'm coming from because I wouldn't think there would be anything wrong with it. I think it would be just like what you're saying and what she said. Oh, that's great, you know, help them get confidence, especially if they're in their twenties and they have, and they're still a virgin because they're afraid, but you're, it's a man being afraid like that, that's not, that's not normal. He needs help. Somebody needs to help him with his mental and emotional state. You know, and maybe for some men that's the breakthrough. Because I've coached men like that too, where they grew up in a very fundamentalist religious household and they're, you know, they were waiting for marriage and then they're 30 years old and they're a virgin and they met a sex worker and then they started seeing her and they're like, oh my God, this is amazing, and then they fall in love with her, you know, there's that too. So, I think because I, I'm seeing the other end of it. I'm seeing the years later, how it affected them.

28:33 Ricardo Lopes: Right. And I mean, when it, uh, after they see an escort, they pay for sex and they basically cheated on their wives or their girlfriends. I mean, do you think that, uh, uh, if they want that, of course, it's, it's, it's for them to make that kind of decision, but uh if they want to try to Like, rebuild their relationship in some way. Do you think that couples can get over cheating? I mean, if

29:06 Mary Knight: the wife finds

29:07 Ricardo Lopes: out, of course.

29:09 Mary Knight: Well, what happens in the, in the case of married men, um, they've been in, and for whatever reason, they're in a low sex, no sex relationship. They don't want to get divorced, and so they see a sex worker. And what Happens like I learned this from my coaching clients now, I hear it now, and then what I learned back when I was an escort is. They take that energy. Back into their marriage, because it does give them confidence, because sometimes men are thinking, I just thought maybe I wasn't good in bed, or I thought maybe I wasn't desirable, or, you know, whatever, like whatever things are going on in their heads, and then when, when they have this positive experience with an escort, they're like, oh wow, I still got it. And then they have that confidence to go back to their wives. I love that, and I love hearing those stories because that is, that is true. And men, because they keep it in its place, right? They don't get caught up. Because what they really want is to stay married. And they just kind of get in their heads and they don't know how to resolve some of the issues they have and so it helps them kind of get unstuck.

30:21 Ricardo Lopes: But do you think that's what happens most of the time or just some of the time, or it is rare?

30:29 Mary Knight: I, you know, I don't know, um. If I had to guess, I would say it's rare. I would say that it's rare, um. Uh, BECAUSE that was not, I only heard about that a few times. OK, but that just, but, you know, that doesn't. That doesn't mean that's not true. I think because once you start seeing an escort too, it's so if you have the money, oh my gosh, it's so easy. It's so easy. You're always there's no uncertainty. You know, you, oh, you know that you're going to be received. You're going to be accepted.

31:13 Ricardo Lopes: Do you think that's why even very famous men and men who could basically just, I, I mean, pretty much go out on the street and have sex with whoever they want, even, even them, even them sometimes pay for sex.

31:33 Mary Knight: Um, I think that

31:35 Ricardo Lopes: It, I mean, the sense that it's easy and that it's guaranteed, I guess.

31:42 Mary Knight: I think there, there's, I think that also because when they are approached by women because of their fame. That it's a performance that they have to put on. They're the ones performing, right? Because, but when you go to see an escort, she's the one performing. So there's that also, I think the anonymity. You know, there that too, like, people aren't gonna be taking pictures of you, seeing you with this, this random ass woman, you know, you're gonna be someplace a little more private, most likely you're going to have arranged this, and yeah, so I think there's, there's that too. Mhm.

32:20 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, BUT, but I mean, do you think that it's always worth it to try to, I don't know, after that sort of situation of paying for sex and, particularly if a guy has done so for a somewhat longer period of time that it's always worth it to try to. Uh, MAKE amends and rebuild the relationship that they had with their wife or with their girlfriend, or I mean, maybe it's better to just try with another person. I, I mean, I'm not saying necessarily try with the escort, but with another, with another person.

33:03 Mary Knight: I think that sometimes. So much water has gone under the bridge, as they say, that sometimes you need to move on, um, and Sometimes it, it is worth it. I think it depends on what you want. You know, what, what is it that you want? Um, BECAUSE I coach men where a lot of the men I coach are a little bit older. Um, AND like I'd say, the 50s, early 60s, and they've been in a low sex, no sex dynamic for a long time, long time, and they have grown kids, and it's usually a couple of things that happens with them. They are. They like to have a big birthday. Or their youngest has become a senior in high school, right, and got into college, so they know, oh, wow, it's markers, like these big markers in life, and they realize, wow, am I gonna live with this woman in this situation for another 15 or 20 years and not have the sex life that I wanna have, you know, am I gonna live the rest of my life without ever having a blowjob? Again, am I gonna do, am I gonna have sex if I live another, you know, if I say a man's 60 and what is the average lifespan of a man and a like 76, and they're having sex like once or twice a year, am I gonna live. The rest of my life having sex 16 times, maybe 32 if I'm lucky. Am I really willing to live like that? Those are the kind of men that, they come, then they go, they see an escort, and they're like, oh, you know what, it, it isn't the sex that I miss. It's actually being received by someone, being accepted, feeling connected, feeling like, wow, I can be myself and someone actually cares about me and what I want and what I need. That's when they start, they, so, so when they go to see the escort and they realize, oh wow, yeah, it isn't just sex, right? And so then they think, OK, well, seeing an escort, that's no longer for me. I'm not gonna do that anymore because I'm not, I'm, I'm in another situation where I'm not getting what I want. So, then they, they come to me because they're like, I don't really want to get a divorce because I love this woman and I thought we'd grow old together and we have all these travel plans, but the sex thing. It's killing me. I can't live like this. And so they come to me because I, I teach them about female sex drive, sexual polarity, and how they can have conversations with their wives and rekindle the sex life that they used to have or build a brand new one. Really build it because they have new bodies, they've got menopause and lower testosterone, you know, all those kinds of things that have happened. And so, there are some men who are willing to do that and want to do that, and some men who are just, I'm done. But the majority of, of relationships that end, that, that's, that's started, um, initiated by women. Mhm.

36:03 Ricardo Lopes: Right, it's not so much the men, even the one, the ones who cheat in this case that, uh, end the relationship.

36:13 Mary Knight: Yeah, and these men who are, you know, they see an escort, like, you know, a handful of times and they're like, yeah, this isn't for me, because these men are used to having a real relationship. They're used to having a real companionship, having a real partner. And if you're used to that. Then seeing an escort is not gonna do it for you.

36:33 Ricardo Lopes: Right. So, I, I mean, another interesting thing that you talk about in some of your videos, and uh, I'm really interested in this kind of thing. I don't know if it's necessarily something that uh you yourself experienced, but, uh, when and how do men fall in love with escorts and, uh and also when do escorts, escorts fall in love with their clients?

37:03 Mary Knight: Well, the escorts falling in love with clients is rare. Um, JUST like, just like falling in love with anybody, right? Again, it's a rare, it's a rare thing. You don't, you don't fall in love that often, just like you don't meet someone that you want to be your best friend very often. And so it is, it is rare, and it's also intoxicating as an escort when you meet a man and you're like, whoa. And it's not just that he may not even be the hottest guy, right? It's just there's something about him. That you're just like, oh, wow. And you, you know, you take a, take a chance when you're doing that because then you're losing a client. So he's got to be somebody, somebody pretty special to you and someone that you're really connecting with on all levels. But to meet a man that you actually want to have sex with, that's not paying you is, is a wonderful feeling and it's so intoxicating, and it's rare. And, I mean, in my career of like, I was on again, off again for about 12 years, that happened to me 3 times. You know, in that, in that time, um, but other women that I know, same thing, it happens a handful of times and it always ends in disaster. It does, because it, because understandably, and I think very naturally, most men have a very difficult time with the idea that the woman they care about is having sex with other men for money. You know, that's, that's a, that's a tough, that's a tough pill for most men to, to swallow. And I mean, I do coach men on that, like that's been, like the majority of men that reached out to me, that's, that's who I talked to. And I created a course recently for them just like a private podcast for them where I get kind of, you know, more into it and talk about how, yeah, I mean, you can, you can have a wonderful fulfilling relationship with a woman who's a sex worker absolutely because there's a freedom there that most men aren't used to experiencing with women. So we, we can talk about that a little bit, um, later if you want, or I can kind of keep going that keep talking about that or we can go to the men. Uh, WHO fall in love.

39:16 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, just before that, let me just ask you, I, I mean, is, is there something about women being escorts that perhaps because they are in that kind of situation, uh, they fall in love for or they would fall in love for a specific. Men who would have specific things to offer them that perhaps other women, other women wouldn't necessarily look for or pay attention to. I mean, just because of them being in that particular kind of situation, or do you think that it's, I mean, what an escort would look for in a man is the exact same that any other woman would look for.

40:06 Mary Knight: Well, I think, well, firstly, A woman who is escorting is not looking for a boyfriend. She is not looking for a relationship, right? So, that's not even on your mind. And so when you meet somebody, you're like, whoa, it, and it does kind of, it kind of gets you. Um, JUST, just sexual chemistry, right? That, because that's what you're working off of there. And, um, it's easy to be with a man that you're actually attracted to. It's not work, it's not a performance. It's like, oh. OK, this feels good. Oh, I forgot, I forgot what this feels like, and it's amazing. And so what a woman would look for, I think, I think. I don't know that it's that it's any different, but I know for me, while I was escorting and then once I quit. The I was much more accepting of all kinds of men. Than I was before. I was always pretty accepting. I think that's what made the work easier for me at times. I didn't really have a type. You know, and so that makes it like, I like, I'm big on personality, you know, I am, I'm big on personality, and, um, and someone I can really talk to and, you know, it's like, oh, this is fun, and, you know, and so that was, you know, for me, and I think that's, that's true of a lot of escorts too, but, but, but it's, it's, yeah, I noticed that I became a lot more, I was much more accepting and men. That maybe had approached me before, like if I'm out with my girlfriends and a man approached me, I was much more open to the type of man that would approach me than I was before because I knew that those middle-aged men that are balding with a little, with a little paunch were, it was some of the best sex I had ever had in my life. As an escort. So you cannot judge a book by its cover. Ladies, anybody listening, do not underestimate those men. Especially if they had been in a long-term relationship, right? Because they, they knew how to have sex, you know, they knew, they knew a woman's body. So that, that was just my, uh, you, you, I think it's, it's more about how you, it's always how you feel when you're with a man. You know, that's how it is. Like, how do you feel when you're with him?

42:24 Ricardo Lopes: And perhaps some of those more middle-aged guys are also more emotionally mature,

42:32 Mary Knight: right? Yes, I was gonna say definitely, um, but yeah, uh, sure, sure,

42:41 Ricardo Lopes: and I, and I, and I said some, I didn't say all of them.

42:45 Mary Knight: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I think that. You know, and maybe this is just My bias, but, but it's I think that generally speaking, men who are seeing escorts are doing it because something is missing. And it's something that they're not at that moment willing to face. They're not willing to deal with it. Yeah. And they're offloading it someplace else. They're seeing escorts is an escape, just like gambling, overdrinking, overdrugging, video games, overeating, all of that. It's just another escape. And so it's, so you know, oh, this man isn't, isn't dealing with some of life's problems. You know, is that really the kind of man that I want to be involved with?

43:40 Ricardo Lopes: Mm, yeah, no, that, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And so how about the men or the clients? I mean, when do you think that they fall in love with an escort and why do you think they fall in love with escorts when that happens, of course.

43:59 Mary Knight: Oh, it's, well, Having someone. Open to you Having someone where you feel like you can be yourself. I mean, how amazing is that? Especially when you are either you're in a marriage or you got divorced, so you're feeling kind of low, kind of wounded, you know, like you're not being met, no one, no one gives a shit about you or what you're feeling, and, and then you go someplace where That is the whole point of your being there is because it's all about you. Mhm. How many people experience that in their lives, anywhere? And you, that's what seeing an escort is all about, is, again, the certainty. You can relax, you can be yourself, and also having a woman open her body to you when you've been being denied that. Um, FOR whatever reason, right? But, but it's, you're not turning on your wife, cause if you're turning on your wife, she's gonna have sex with you, OK? That's just women want to have sex and marriage too. No woman wants to be in a sexless marriage, but it's, but there's something besides getting into all that, the sexual polarity part of it. So he feels terrible, and then when you go someplace where you feel really great. Oh my gosh, of course you're gonna fall in love, because a lot of men equate a woman having sex with them with her really caring about them and loving them. And as we know, that is not, that's not true. And So men get confused. They get confused with the openness.

45:42 Ricardo Lopes: But uh they get confused, but sometimes it can be or become actual love, right?

45:51 Mary Knight: Uh, YOU mean that a mutual thing or just a man that thinks he's in love?

45:56 Ricardo Lopes: I, I mean, I, I guess I, I was asking both,

46:00 Mary Knight: so. Um, THE mutual thing is, as I, it's very, very, very rare. It does happen, but it's very rare, um, and it's Well, also, so this, so when, when an escort falls in love, and I know from personal experience, I dated someone who was not a client of mine. He was somebody that I, I met on the outside. He knew what I did, and he was fine with it. And It I, it's hard to work and go to work and have sex with other men when you're in love with someone. It's just it. Fucks with your head. It does. It's just, it's difficult. It's a difficult thing to do. And once you experience that, and then you have a breakup with somebody, for whatever reason, you break up, it makes you very hesitant to do that again. And so you just kind of put even more of a guard up. But to, to want to give up that work. Because I did, but I wasn't in a financial situation where I could do that, you know, I was a single mom, and I wasn't, I wasn't able to do that. But what you're, but say, say even if you aren't a single mom. And you're a woman to stop escorting. It isn't that she's giving up all this sex, it's that she's giving up. Her independence, her freedom. This is how she makes her living, and unless she has another plan. Where she's going someplace else to make money. She's not just, again, not just giving up sex and all this attention and validation from these other men, she's giving up her whole way of life, her whole way of this is how I take care of myself. And my loved ones because for me when I was a sex worker, that was the very first time in my life I was ever able to take care of myself or my kids and to give that up, that's asking a lot. You know, of yourself, not that, not that a man would ask you to give it up, some do, but most are like, oh, I don't feel like I have the right to ask her to give it up because she was doing this when I met her, so I'm not going to ask her to give that up. Of course, it would be cool if she would, but, you know, so for women that we, we, you know, you just want to be with that one guy. You know, at least, at least for a while anyway, but it's So that, that's, that's my, my, my lecture on that is that it is, it's, you're asking a woman to give up a whole lot, a whole lot. And nowadays, it's not every woman that gets into sex work of all kinds that's somehow, that's somehow damaged. That I think that used to be the case. But I think now with all the proliferation and acceptance of so many sexually, uh, provocative professions and social media and whatnot, it isn't as stigmatized. Although it is, it's not, not as much. I think that women are more open to getting into it that are just like, ah, you know what, I'll try that. Where before it was like, you had to be desperate, you had to need the money. You had to be working something out, you know, now it's just an opportunity and people take it.

49:19 Ricardo Lopes: So I mean, does that mean that you think that nowadays perhaps there's a higher percentage of women who have or who work as sex workers? I mean, whatever kind of sex work they might be doing that are not, I mean, I don't like using this kind of word, but that do not have some sort of issue in their life.

49:47 Mary Knight: Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, you don't want to call someone damaged or broken, and, and I'll just transparent for me, I was not sexually abused. That's not part of my history. My, my mom was mentally ill, so I didn't know what it was like to have a stable. Home. I grew up in a very chaotic environment, and so it made it difficult for me to understand emotional attachments to people. And I think that was one of the reasons it made it easy for me to be a sex worker. It's like, I wasn't, I didn't need, I didn't need emotional support from people, you know, I didn't need that. I wasn't looking for that. Where some women who are sex workers kind of do, you know, they kind of get caught up and, and those are the women that I found tend to do a lot of drinking. Taking Xanax, smoke a lot of weed, drinking a lot, like, because they're, they're not being, uh, met in a way they want to be met. Their needs aren't being met and I didn't, I didn't have those needs. I had to learn about that kind of stuff. I know it sounds so wild, but it's, it's, yeah, it was, it was something. Um, MY mom had borderline personality disorder. And my dad was an alcoholic. So, yeah, so it's like, I, yeah, it's, it's just, it, it, yeah, I learned a lot of weird behaviors, but I didn't actually have narcissism or didn't actually have BPD, but I learned how to operate in the world that way and I had to go, oh, wait, this doesn't, wait a minute. And so I got help. And so it helped me to kind of, to break those patterns and to be a more, I don't know, I'll say normal person, but I don't want to say normal because that's not true, because most people we call normal are not people I would wanna, I wouldn't want to live their lives. But yeah, like a more, a more open person and a person that's able to receive and give love. But if I, like right now, I couldn't even imagine being a sex worker. I couldn't imagine because I have a loving husband and I've never had that. You know, we met when we were both 49. So, I mean, that's like a long time to just kind of be like, hey, you know, so, but, but I, I think that nowadays, no, I don't think the women and the men that get into this have had some kind of like fucked up childhood. I think it's just because the opportunity is there, because before, like when I started again, it, it was out of the phone book. The internet wasn't a thing like it is now. It was a phone book. So you actually had to work hard to get. To be an an escort, to go work for an escort agency. Yeah. Or now you can just start your own thing. Yeah, it's

52:23 Ricardo Lopes: a

52:23 Mary Knight: completely

52:24 Ricardo Lopes: different times, right?

52:25 Mary Knight: Yeah, yeah, and I think some of that is good, and some of it's not so good because, you know, what do you know when you're 18? You don't know anything. You know, and, and it's also, it's not like, OK, they're privately being sex workers, you know, or like they're working in a titty bar. It's like, no, they're on the Internet, and that, from what I understand is forever. That's the part that bothers me about the young people. I'm like, oh bless your hearts. I, I hope that you are strong enough to, when the time comes you want to quit and that you want to go out in the world and have whatever kind of life you have, that you're strong enough to go, yeah, I used to do that. And

53:07 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, so, and I mean, let, let me ask you now, changing topics a little bit, do you think that uh working as an escort that you got or that you developed any specific I or any special insight into How men feel valued by their partners. I mean, what, what do you know about that? What makes men feel valued by the person they are with?

53:39 Mary Knight: Yeah, a lot of it. Is about, it's a word I've used a lot, I think, uh, is accepted. FOR who they are and not judged and criticized and um. You know, men do that to women too. It's not, but since we're talking about this in this context, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm talking about it like this. That is what I learned because I. THOUGHT that it was all about sex, and as long as a man is getting sex. That he's gonna be pretty happy in his marriage. And while that's true in some cases, it depends on the kind of sex. Like, are you just kind of rolling over and say, OK, honey, go ahead, because that, that duty sex, that obligatory sex, men say that they feel worse after having that kind of sex than they did before. Um, IT is someone actually wanting you. Appreciating you. It's not complicated, right? It's just not, but it doesn't mean that it's always easy to do, especially, you know, as a woman, as a wife, it's easy to get super annoyed with men. Because

55:02 Ricardo Lopes: OK, why, why, why,

55:05 Mary Knight: why? Because The first thing that comes to mind is the timetable. Y'all, you men, men seem to be on a different timetable than women are. And, and it, what,

55:18 Ricardo Lopes: what do you mean by

55:20 Mary Knight: that? What I mean by that is, is this is such a common thing. It's so, it's so funny to me, and I laugh whenever I see it on the internet, little memes and stuff about men and women. And about you, you know, met a woman, you'll say, hey, would you please, you know, do da da da da da, or, oh yeah, I'm really excited about your cleaning out the garage, or I'm really excited about your building those shelves and whatnot. And then a day goes by, a week goes by, a month goes by, a whole summer goes by, and that stuff still isn't done. And the man's like, yeah, but I said I would do it. I was like, yeah, that was 3 months ago. I was like, wait, what? IS it? You know, or also when men, you know, if, if the man is doing the initiating and calling a woman for the date, and then doesn't takes to, you know, gets her number and then takes a week to call her. Women's feelings get hurt by that because we're like, but I thought you liked me. He's like, Yeah, I, you're great. I can't wait to go out with you. Well, why didn't you call me right away? Well, because I was busy, you know, it's not, and it's, it's a genuine thing, right?

56:22 Ricardo Lopes: OK, so let, let me just interrupt you there because this is very interesting because I, I, I heard. I heard from some men, and I don't agree with this, but I heard from some men who say that, oh, if you get a girl's number, you should wait 4 or 5 days before inviting her on a date, because otherwise you will seem very desperate.

56:49 Mary Knight: Um, I 4 or 5 days seems too long, 2 or 3. Now, I know, I know, because there are some male coaches, dating coaches that I love, and I love watching them, and I'm like, mhm, yeah, this is all from the men's perspective, but it depends on the woman, and Being, appearing desperate and appearing eager aren't the same thing, and a woman wants to know that you're interested, but also, why are you taking so long? But it, but it is part of it is because of the, of just the way that, because that was like with me and my husband. He got my number, uh, texted me and said, hey, is this, hey, this is Bobby, just, you know, saying hi, it was great to meet you. I'll, you know, I'll be calling you in a few days to ask you out. It took him like 5 or 6 days, but he was genuinely busy. But, so I get what, why, I get why men say that, but it does, sometimes it hurts women's feelings, though. But, but the timetable thing, because the, the thing too, so like about household chores and things around the house, I'll say this because this is, I, I love thinking about this. I haven't quite got it all figured out, but I love thinking about this. When men, when women get annoyed with a man, it's because whatever he's doing is turning her off. When You don't follow through on what you say you're gonna do with a woman. She takes it as he doesn't care about me. He doesn't listen to me. I'm not important to him because we're, because that's how it feels in our bodies to us.

58:27 Ricardo Lopes: OK, but is that mostly about being emotionally available, or, or does it also apply to other areas?

58:35 Mary Knight: I think it's about being emotionally available. I think it's about being present. Like if the man is really present in real time in the relationship, he's more apt to handle that kind of stuff than if he's not. And, and granted, some men are very, very busy. You know, and they have a lot of shit going on. And so that's when, when I coach women, I guide them. Be careful what you ask for. Be judicious, not because you're trying to make it super easy on him, which there's nothing wrong with that, but because you're trying to make it easy on you, so that you don't have to be annoyed. You know, and then as you mature in a relationship, you learn, you learn their patterns and their things, and you know, well, I'm not going to ask him to do that because I know he's going out of town next week. I'll just wait till he's gone and I'll do it myself because sometimes a man will say, oh, I'll do that and then they don't, and you don't want to start doing it because he's like, hey, I said I would do that. You know, and then you say, yeah, well, you didn't, you know, and then cause a little fight, you just wait.

59:45 Ricardo Lopes: OK, so let, let me ask you this. I mean, so do you think then that for, for example, if a guy He's good with remembering the things that you like. I mean, he's good with particular kinds of special dates that he's good with, for example, giving you presents when you're not expecting to get one, that he always remembers the kind of. Activities you like to do and arranges ways for you to do them together and all of that. I mean, those, you would agree are all good traits for a man to have,

1:00:27 Mary Knight: right? Sure, and it, it depends on the woman too, because some women, that's not important to them. They just, they want, it's about being present. Right, like actually being in your body in the relationship and not in your head off somewhere, because what I found is most men who see escorts are what I would call nice guys. Right, they're nice guys. I mean they're in their heads. They're in their head. They, they're overthinkers. They're analyzers, and these are the men that tend to get friend-zoned when they're asking women out. Um, THESE are the men that get friend-zoned in their own marriage because they're in their heads and they're not in their bodies. In real time, which is kind of, I know it can be like a, a very conceptual, but That's, that's what I, I teach men is about being present, being in your body, not off in your head somewhere else, because women feel that, and it sucks. It's super sucks when you have a, a, a partner that does that because you feel abandoned.

1:01:32 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but I mean there's a reason why I asked you my previous question and asked you whether you, you agreed that all of those traits are good traits for a man to have, but I mean then, I mean,

1:01:46 Mary Knight: if he's doing it, if he's doing it because It's if if he does it with skill. If he does it sincerely. If he does it because it comes from his heart, not because he's afraid he's gonna get in trouble. Yeah. It's the intention behind it. Like that's, that's, that's the bottom line. It's the intention behind it. And a man has to be present. To do those things with intention.

1:02:17 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. Uh, SO, uh, what would you say is the importance of communication in relationships and what do you think is good communication?

1:02:30 Mary Knight: Communication is Vital Meaning you have to share. What's on your heart and your mind with each other. Because why wouldn't you? You know, you're, you've hitched your wagon to this person, you know, there you're building a life with this person, right? If we're talking about, you know, being, being married to someone, being partnered with somebody. And, but the, the thing, the thing for women to remember, I, I, and I know this might not be popular, but I don't care because it's true, is That men don't communicate like women do. And men are not women. And we have been given the message. I don't know how old you are. You look very young. I don't know how old you are.

1:03:23 Ricardo Lopes: I'm 35. Are you?

1:03:25 Mary Knight: OK. You're very young. OK. You look, you look, you, you look, you look young. Um, WELL, I'm 61, and so the way that, you know, that I was raised, we're just kind of getting into that, that, oh, men and women are the same. Men and women are the same. Men and women might be equal, but we are not the same. We are very different in the way that we communicate with one another, and men, some men are very good at expressing emotions and they're like, oh, yes, this is how I feel about this, but most of the time they're not. And if they're not, some women will take it as, oh, he's emotionally shut down, he doesn't want to talk to me, he doesn't care about me, he doesn't love me. If he did, he would share his feelings, all of his feelings with me about everything. And it's like, no, because that's not how men, that's not how men do things. Men are not your girlfriends. Men are not women. ARE men. OK,

1:04:13 Ricardo Lopes: so let me ask you this then, because this is something that many men are afraid of. Do you think that men can be too emotional? I mean, do you think that from a certain point onward, then perhaps it's a degree of emotion that women no longer appreciate?

1:04:37 Mary Knight: Yeah, well, because men don't want to be seen as being weak, right? Yes, there is definitely an Overshare component and let me, I'll, but I'll, I'll tell you when. When it can happen. When a woman has a very high level of attraction for a man. He can be weak in front of her. And she will forgive him. You can be weak with a woman, like you're married to somebody and you lose your job and you're like, oh, you're floundering around. You can be like that for several months before she'll start to feel turned off by you. If she has a high level of attraction for you. If she doesn't have a high level of attraction for you. You can't, you cannot fault her, or she will be turned off. And that's what I hear men like in the red pill, oh, you can't be weak around a woman. You can totally be your freaking self with a woman if she's into you, and why would you be with a woman who isn't into you anyway? What are you doing? You know? So, but the thing is, to answer the question, there's a big difference between going to a woman and saying, Honey, if I have seemed distant or if I seem down, I want you to know it's not you. I'm having this situation that came up at work and I've been having a hard time with it, but I'm working on it, and I just wanna let you know that. That's a huge difference than saying, oh my God, shit, it's a fan. Things are falling apart. I don't know what to do, da, da, da, because maybe you feel that way inside, but that's not that, I'll just say it, that's for your journal. That's for one of your buddies that can strategize with you. That is not for your woman. I know that's not a popular thing to say, but it's like, that's, but if my husband came to me and was like, oh my God, I'm freaking out, I would say, OK, but I'm a coach too. I'm a strategist. So, so I would be, I don't coach him though, unless he specifically asks, that's a slippery slope. It's a slippery slope, you know, but it's also women trying to use men as their therapists, and then I've, I coach husbands, they're like, yeah, but if I, if I don't listen to her, then she gets mad at me. It's like, well, then she's just gonna have to be mad. Because she'll be mad and turned on, or do you want her to be happy, comfortable, and your roommate? Cause she'll get over, you have to have boundaries, right? That's That's, that's the part of it too, having boundaries with yourself and then having boundaries with her. So yeah,

1:07:08 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, uh, but I mean, I was just wondering. Uh, I mean, maybe, OK, so this is a complicated, this is a, this is a complicated question, but I, I mean, when it comes to being vulnerable to a partner. I mean, isn't Emotional support part of the deal, but I mean, OK, perhaps there's levels to emotional support and perhaps there's limits to that, so, I mean, what, what kind of level. And this is, this is a really complicated question, but what kind of level of emotional support do you think is reasonable for a partner to give?

1:07:57 Mary Knight: If your partner, male or female, comes to you and says, I'm having an issue with this and I wanna talk to you about it, you know, it has nothing to do with you or me, but it's a thing I'm dealing with, um. Yeah, yeah, because again, I said, if you can't communicate with this person, then what's the point? There's a difference between sharing. And emotionally vomiting on someone, you know, and so, do you know what I mean by by that? Like, it's like, it's one thing for me to, to, to come to you and say, oh my gosh, Ricardo, I'm just like, oh, blah bla bla bla blah blah blah blah, and then not want to hear any of your feedback. Right, because there's a difference between being someone's dumping and someone's venting, it happens. You need to vent sometimes. But again, It depends on how attracted you are to one another, because it's very easy to lose sexual polarity if You've got all this other weird stuff going on in your relationship and your sex life isn't good.

1:09:02 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, I mean, let's, for example, take an example of a situation where I guess that most people would be very understanding of someone feeling really down in the dumps. So let's say that for example, Uh, you're a man, you're in a relationship, and your father dies, and you're, and you're terribly sad. I mean, I guess that in that particular kind of context, if for the next week you really want more, I, I mean, you sometimes you cry and sometimes you're a little bit angry and Sometimes you need a little bit more of space for yourself, that's not a problem, or is it?

1:09:47 Mary Knight: Right, no, no, I mean, because I think that It shows someone's character. Right, if you're with a woman who wouldn't accept that you were crying or upset because your father died. Um, NO, that's, that's, that would show. Her character,

1:10:10 Ricardo Lopes: which wouldn't be good

1:10:12 Mary Knight: even if you were upset for a couple of months, right? I mean, gosh, but I think at a certain point, right, you might need to get, if you, if you are having such a hard time that it's affecting all kinds of things in your life after several months. That's not, that wouldn't be what I would call normal or healthy. You might be stuck.

1:10:33 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah. Yeah, because there's the mourning process, right? I mean, it takes, it takes a while. It, it's, you're not, you're not just mourning for a day and then everything's fine, right? I mean, it takes a little bit of time.

1:10:50 Mary Knight: And sometimes it'll sneak up on you. My, my husband's mother passed away. It'll be 2 years in November, and sometimes it just sneaks up on him. That's how grief, grief goes. My father passed away, uh, coming up on 5 years ago, and sometimes it still sneaks up on me. You know, it's a thing, it's a process that you have to go through and, and mature, caring, loving partners will accept that. In my opinion, right, in my opinion, some men, some men don't want to be vulnerable, like, I mean, but again, there's a difference between being vulnerable with somebody and being a bitch, being weak, you know, I mean. I got that from my coaching clients. They say, oh man, I just feel like a little bitch, and I'm like, you're not being a little bitch, you're being human. You get to have feelings. It's how you express those at, at times that, that matter the most. Then sometimes you have to process a little bit by yourself before you just go blah on somebody. And sometimes you don't have that opportunity. You know, sometimes you get a phone call in front of your wife, you know, I mean, it's get you're, you, but, you know, but it's, it's, you know, giving, giving your man grace.

1:12:04 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, no, I, you know, because I, I think it's also, I think it's also normal, I mean normal in the sense for many men to feel afraid of expressing their feelings or emotions in front of their partners because I, I mean, It's particularly in some contexts, it's basically the entire society telling you that you shouldn't do that, and if you do, then you will be in trouble, you know.

1:12:35 Mary Knight: Well, right, I mean that comes from childhood. No. Right, in, in the United States, I mean, I, I've lived in the South my whole life, uh, you know, I live in Texas in a small town, um. And it's very traditional here. It's great. Um, I don't see a lot of this, but I know when I was growing up and just kind of the, like the general message is big boys don't cry. You know, you better take care of your mama and your sisters. You know, you're the man of the house now. Like, from the time, that's what, that's the message my husband got when he was like 12. And so it, it messed with his head. He felt very responsible, and because of that, he thought, oh, there's no time for me and my emotions, there's no place here, that's not appropriate. So that, that's an extreme, right? And then, you know, the other extreme is like expecting a man to act like a woman. The other extreme is acting, expecting a man to be a robot. Yeah, you know, it's not weak to be vulnerable or to have emotions, it's what you do with it. Mhm,

1:13:38 Ricardo Lopes: mhm. Also, also, because I mean there's contexts. I, I don't know about nowadays. I mean, sometimes you see it, for example, in sports, but I mean, particularly in more historical contexts, uh, particularly when, for example, during war and other situations like that, I mean, there are situations where men used to To cry a lot even in front of each other. I mean it was just considered normal. I mean if it was a situation where they were just emotionally overwhelmed or even or even situations where it was societally expected for men to express their emotions in a in a very intense way, I mean they would do that and they wouldn't feel ashamed of it, so.

1:14:32 Mary Knight: Yeah, and, and they shouldn't, but I know me, I don't like crying in front of anybody, and I do feel a sense, I do feel, not, not, not as much as I used to, but I felt ashamed, like, oh, something's wrong. I shouldn't be doing this, you know, kind of thing because, you know, that's the way many of us in the states were, were raised. That's private. Go do that in your room, kind of thing, you know. But, so, um, my husband and I are big basketball fans, and we live close to San Antonio, Texas, and the Spurs, I don't know if you follow that, the Spurs are in the finals. And when they won the playoffs, Victor Wamanyana. He cried. Yeah, he's on it, and this, and the, it was all over the news. How everybody thought it was so amazing. That he was so emotional because it was a big achievement.

1:15:32 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah.

1:15:34 Mary Knight: So sports, Michael Jordan cried when he won the championship. THIS sport, I think maybe with sports figures, it's OK, it's OK for those guys to cry. They've already proven their masculinity, right? You know.

1:15:46 Ricardo Lopes: Uh, I mean, I mean, look, I, I, I, I don't know, I don't know about, uh, the, I don't know about basketball specifically, but I, because I live in Europe, I'm a big soccer fan, and I mean, you, you can be sure that many times when our team wins, even the male fans cry.

1:16:07 Mary Knight: Oh yeah. Oh, my husband teared up during the basketball. I was like, yeah, yeah, it's exciting. OK,

1:16:18 Ricardo Lopes: so, look, look, we're, we're almost running out of time. So let me ask you one more question and perhaps another one if we still have time, but, uh, I mean, I'm just curious because since you worked as an escort and you have, uh, I mean, access to. Uh, EVERY, every different kind of intimacy there's to be experienced by a by a, a human, I guess. So, uh, what do you think is the deepest form of intimacy because sometimes people say, I mean, I guess particularly if they are men that sexual intimacy is the deepest form of intimacy, but is it really? I mean, because I, many times it seems to me that Being able to express yourself honestly and communicate honestly and feeling free to express your emotions with somebody is actually a deeper form of intimacy than sex. What do you think about that?

1:17:30 Mary Knight: I think that Men who are A little older, I'll say like more mature, and I'm not talking about emotionally, I mean just physically more mature and have more experience. Those men would agree with that. From my experience, they would definitely agree with that, because you can have sex with a lot of people. And it doesn't mean a damn thing, but you're not gonna just share your heart or what's, or what's on your heart with just anyone. Excuse me, you have to feel safe, and that's the thing, like men have to feel safe before they open their hearts, and women have to feel safe before they open their bodies. Right, or it used to be that way anyway for women, but I think, you know, things have changed, you know, in our, in our culture, but it's, but it's still a thing like to have the most fulfilling sexual experience with someone, you have to feel safe, emotionally safe, you know, as a woman, and yeah, and men don't just don't go around opening their hearts to anybody. You know, and so when they feel safe with a woman, I think that's That's the most intimate thing, and I'm not just saying that cause I'm guessing, right? They're, they tell me. You know, and it does come with maturity and experience that men Feel that way. I'm thinking of the, one of the youngest clients I have right now is in his early 40s, and he's figuring that out right now.

1:19:04 Ricardo Lopes: Oh, so one of the youngest you have is in his early 40s, so you don't have anyone younger than that

1:19:11 Mary Knight: right now, no. Sometimes I coach men in their 20s. I have, but those are men more looking for dating advice, and that's not, I mean, I can do that. But that's not my, where I really I like to coach. I certainly can on attraction and all that, like young, young men like that, because their goals are different. And sure, I can help you pick up a bunch of chicks, but that's not really that much fun for me. It's just, I, I, I like, I like working with men on understanding female sex drive. And some and, and that's what those younger men need too, but they, they're, they're more about the sex, and the older men are more about the connection.

1:19:57 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, but do, do even the younger ones, do you try to tell them in any, in any way that perhaps there's things that are more important in the long term than just getting chicks or,

1:20:14 Mary Knight: um, no, I don't, because they, they've watched my channel, they know, that's how they find me, they know, and I mean, I kind of tease them a little bit about it. I'm trying to think of the last thing. Yeah, I was, I was coaching a man, who was 25, and I, I did a series of, of coaching sessions with him about getting, you know, about that. And, and, and, yeah, ultimately, you know, it does come down to, you know, what, what's your goal? Why is that your goal? Why do you want that? And it's, it's validation. It's trying to prove something. And so an old older men tend to have done so, I've already done that. You know, I've already been married, I've already had the kids, I've already done that. I'm now I'm, you know, wanting a true companion.

1:21:00 Ricardo Lopes: Yeah, yeah, no, that, that's really interesting. So look, just before we go apart from your channel, where can people find you on the internet?

1:21:11 Mary Knight: Oh, at my website www.sexloveansoul.com. I have a website there with different things that I have to offer. um, I should have a blog up my blog up pretty soon. I have articles that I write. I have a newsletter also that you can subscribe to that goes out every week and I have things on there that I don't really, I don't always talk about on my channel, um, but yeah, that's, and I'm on Instagram.

1:21:39 Ricardo Lopes: OK, great. I will leave links to all of that in the description as well. And Mary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. It's been great and really fun to talk with you.

1:21:51 Mary Knight: Oh, same, Ricardo. Thank you so much. It's, it's my honor to be here. Thank you.

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